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  1. Yodhrin
    Member

    That really is the key point - there are places where total automation makes sense, but not nearly as many as the people invested in/developing total automation would have us believe. In the vast majority of cases, using automation to *augment* humans is better - or at least, more cost-effective and predictable.

    In a few years time you probably could design a totally automated sci-fi-future mass transit rail network that would operate as a completely closed system without any human intervention at all...but is that actually needed? Would the gains of such a system outweigh its costs? Or its opportunity costs, given all the cash it would require to develop and build could instead fund huge improvements to the current system?

    Full automation does have its place, but I think more often that not it's a big flashy distraction from more tangible improvements we could be making *now* without funnelling billions of public money into the pockets of our techbro overlords. Driverless cars could solve RTCs and congestion - or we could just make our cities more liveable and reduce car use. Driverless trains could address driver shortages and sparse timetables, but it would probably be cheaper to just hire a few more drivers and give them the pay & conditions they want(I note that even as China spent billions constructing brand new high speed rail, they still seemed to think it was more efficient to retrain rural *steam train* drivers to operate the new stock than to set the system up to be fully automated).

    And if someone were to think it's unfair that train drivers can use their union to get better pay and conditions while most people are stuck in crappy jobs with no bargaining power, perhaps making efforts to change the latter would be better than playing Crabs In A Bucket over the former.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. steveo
    Member

    @Jonty, genuinely thank you. Food for thought.

    playing Crabs In A Bucket over the former.

    Fine if they're not playing silly bs with public money.

    I can choose not to spend with Amazon or Deliveroo over their treatment of staff. The Government can only play chicken with the rail staff for so long before the government knuckle under. There is no real choice unless we're heading back to the 60's and trying to turn the railways in to roads which I'm sure no one on here thinks is great idea.

    Meanwhile I'm looking at my weekend away being ruined or taking the car. I'm not alone either unless there is a reliable service established then passenger numbers are not going to increase services will be cut and the overtime issue will resolve itself in a way no one wants.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. Tulyar
    Member

    ATO relies on programmed algorithms

    As many will know the customer help bot offered by their bank, utility supplier ... is a resounding oxymoron, which eventually has you giving up or throwing the keyboard at the screen

    Now translate that to real life .... on a road or rail system

    Google cars either in stasis at 4-way stop when a cyclist hovers on a track stand or ploughing down a victim who doesn't register with the algorithm....

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. acsimpson
    Member

    @steveo, If you do want to avoid driving is the bus an option?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. jonty
    Member

    @steveo: you're very welcome. Apologies for being tetchy but apparently labour relations and railway stuff is a Venn diagram I sit in the middle of...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. Tulyar
    Member

    For comfort & speed I'd use a coach - buses are slower & a much harder ride (& you MUST be seated on a coach)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. steveo
    Member

    I've never tried the coach with the bike. I might have a look for a suitable ride in the borders or just do another loop through the Pentlands from the house I was looking forward to getting into the mountains though.

    Borders buses have been good every time I've used them and I don't need to stow my bike.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    ScotRail declined to comment directly on the timetable reductions, but said it was “looking at how we can deliver grater timetable certainty and reliability” for its customers. It said further details would be available in “the coming days”.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/besieged-scotrail-set-to-cut-services-amid-new-threat-of-strike-action-from-biggest-union-3695548

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. steveo
    Member

    services will be cut and the overtime issue will resolve itself in a way no one wants.

    /whistles...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. Arellcat
    Moderator

    "I don’t know if it’s down to the fact drivers aren’t working any rest days, or if it’s just a general theme of cutting train services."

    One industry source said: "To provide a reliable service without the need for rest day working, the cut would be about 30 to 35 per cent."

    I thought rest days were for rest, to ensure drivers can safely operate extremely expensive, fast and heavy machines that carry hundreds of people. I can sympathise, somewhat, insofar as I'm covering for three people and have had no annual leave since about Christmas last year.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. steveo
    Member

    I presume they must be getting some time off? Surely!

    I know January - Feb this year I was going on 20 days in row and goodness knows how many hours, some days off the back of that I wasn't fit to operate a bicycle.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

  13. chdot
    Admin

    A Transport Scotland spokesman said: "The difficult decision to revise the service timetable was made because of the level of disruption caused over the last two weekends by many drivers choosing not to work their rest days. That is of course their right and we respect that.

    "Many of them are clearly prioritising family and leisure time over the financial benefits that come from such working, through the extended rest day working arrangements and additional payments that ScotRail negotiated with Aslef until October 2022.

    "At that point, ScotRail will have a full complement of drivers fully trained and available, reducing the need for any driver to work a rest day.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61504782

    So all fine by November then??

    Anyone got any insight into what’s really going on??

    Can’t just be ‘industrial dispute tactics’, ‘drivers all want to spend more time with their families’, or ‘it’s a conspiracy to further embarrass the SNP Gov’.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot, in a word, Covid. I imagine that, like many other industries, the railways have a higher than normal level of sickness absence. Also perhaps many older staff have chosen to retire early?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. Morningsider
    Member

    It's the drivers' fault for there not being enough drivers - say the organisation that specified, let and (micro)managed the ScotRail contract for the last 16 years. I suppose it just never occurred to them to ask Abellio why a third of services were reliant on overtime working.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. ejstubbs
    Member

    @chdot: Anyone got any insight into what’s really going on??

    From what I've read elsewhere, the third paragraph of what you quoted is close to the mark: pre-Covid, Scotrail was well aware of the fact that many drivers were approaching retirement and had recruited several cohorts of trainees. Unfortunately, when coronavirus came long it severely impacted their training, e.g. the trains which have the cab alongside the corridor connection do not have enough room in said cab for the trainee and trainer to maintain a safe distance. With the easing of restrictions the trainees have now begun their training on real trains along real routes. However, this requires experienced drivers, leaving many rosters uncovered except by overtime - and for reasons that are generally fairly well known, drivers are not volunteering for this overtime.

    So the upshot is that it's taking a fair while to complete the new drivers' training, and taking trained drivers away from normal services in the process.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    @ejs

    That all makes good sense.

    So why the sudden, drastic, action?

    And why no suitable, sensible, public explanation of this?

    If it’s so well planned why is there no clear notion of an end date?

    Yes Covid

    Yes years of not training enough drivers to minimise the need for rest day working/overtime.

    Years of custom and practice of ‘how things are done’?

    Now with added political ‘involvement’??

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. steveo
    Member

    Seems, short of paying the drivers a bigger raise than other public services which I doubt would play well with the Teachers/Nurses/Doctors, or the public after the last two years, the government either has to play hardball or put up with the negative PR from 6 months of unreliable services.

    Looks like hardball it is and we have a timetable that can be accomplished with what is available without having to exploit any good will. The Unions now have to explicitly strike to achieve their aims which again is not going to play well with the public.

    Funny the micromanaging government would never have let First or Albelio resolve things in this manner, much easier to hide behind the franchise model and not force them to tackle this issue before it ever came to head.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    Train services to and from many towns across the central belt will be affected, leaving many residents unsure of how to get between Edinburgh and Glasgow without a car.

    That’s why we’ve taken a look at the options out there to get you to where you need.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotrail-timetable-changes-buses-between-edinburgh-and-glasgow-as-trains-across-central-belt-reduced-3701505

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. Morningsider
    Member

    @steveo - yeah, good assessment. My main concern with this approach is that rail patronage is only running at about 75% of pre-pandemic levels. Butcher the system as folk establish new post-pandemic travel patterns and you bake in more car travel of years to come.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    According to Radio Scotland this morning training ‘enough’ drivers won’t be completed until next summer.

    SG (Gilruth) saying ‘union and SR need to sort it - no political interference’.

    Mostly true, but ultimately meaningless as SG is actual owner and and in charge of pay conditions for public sector workers - presume ASLEF saw that coming.

    Of course media will be full of ‘but £50k is quite a lot of money (less than some high profile journalists and politicians of course) and likely to be more than many people relying on (particularly) early and late trains’.

    Other ‘narrative’/truth is that this all makes it harder to get people out of their cars.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. steveo
    Member

    This would be a great time for the government to show the benefits of public ownership of the railway. Where is the fat cat pay and bonuses we've heard so much about? Could that smooth things over without ruffling other feathers?

    @Morningsider to be fair ASLEF is a culpable and long term its members will be the ones that suffer. The public have short memories and in a few years this skeleton service could be the normal even cut further if people accept it. Less drivers required, less pay etc.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

  24. chdot
    Admin

    Well yes -

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20153323.scotrail-snp-minister-says-service-cuts-will-absolutely-not-last-next-summer/

    ‘Conventionally’ the drivers/union have the upper hand, but things are now multi-layered complicated partly because of nationalisation.

    Railway disputes and troubles (eg franchises) always make the news - because ‘everyone loves trains’ - but not enough to use them…

    SG really doesn’t do transport well - roads, ferries, trains, dumping responsibility for ‘active travel’ on LAs.

    Time for something radical -

    Admit that PT is very important and has to be paid for.

    Significantly reduce some fares.

    Have dynamic pricing - cheap tickets on individual trains to optimise passenger numbers

    So a day out could be say 1/4 price if you booked less busy trains (not just peak)

    Regulate buses.

    Move money from road building to road maintenance (factor in segregated cycle lanes and wider pavements).

    Road pricing.

    Ok not that radical - just ‘impossible’…

    Let LA’s decide how to raise extra money.

    Was talking to a German tourist the other day. She said (for instance) councils could decide to have dog licenses and how much to charge.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. jonty
    Member

    You can't hold train drivers culpable for the state of the railway system any more than you can hold doctors or nurses culpable for the state of the NHS. The only difference is that it's less risky for the press to denigrate one than the other

    (Not that they aren't trying!)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    With energy prices soaring, Germany's parliament has approved the €9 per month ticket plan for public transport over the next three months. But the plan has its detractors.

    https://www.dw.com/en/germany-introduces-9-ticket-to-offset-the-impact-of-the-ukraine-war/a-61788020

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. crowriver
    Member

    @jonty, agreed. It's not the responsibility of train drivers to run themselves ragged working overtime because of the government's / operating company's lack of contingency planning.

    It is disappointing that services will be reduced as a result of this dispute, but it's within the government's power to sort this out. They could delay awarding some dual carriageway contracts to ensure the railways are properly funded, for example. Where there's a will there's a way...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

  29. chdot
    Admin

  30. chdot
    Admin


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