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CONEBI and right to repair...

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  1. Yodhrin
    Member

    In relation to this article: https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/bike-industry-calls-for-clear-rules-on-replacement-e-bike-batteries-and-warns-users

    I read stuff like this from "industry groups" and am immediately suspicious of their motives. More than a few shades of Apple and the auto industry pushing the idea that third party "unofficial" repair is unsafe and irresponsible, and only the manufacturer and their "authorized" associated third parties can be trusted - and should be permitted by law - to handle things. This conveniently places them in a situation where planned obsolescence can be introduced and enforced in a way it can't with traditional bicycles - if only model XYZ3 motors and battery packs will fit your frame and electronics systems and they discontinue those & declare both refurbishing old XYZ3 parts and modifying more modern parts to fit your frame "unsafe", then in practice they're limiting the lifetime of all the parts of the bike to the sales lifetime of the motor and battery packs that fit it.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  2. steveo
    Member

    I can see the point tbh, li-on batteries are really dangerous. If I was selling ebikes I'd be worried them generating a reputation for burning down houses and being legislated out of existence.

    However we're seeing lithium iron phosphate batteries dropping in price, they're a bit less energy dense but a few hundred grams not too much of a problem for an ebike. They should really be going into all new bikes and retro fitted into rebuilds.

    I've just bought an old ebike kit from gumtree, mostly for interest, but the cells were pretty puffed when I got them out. They're very old in a weird format, not 18650 style. They're still holding a charge but I think I'll scrap them to be on the safe side. If I burn the house down I'll never hear the end of it.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  3. MediumDave
    Member

    The way to fix this is standardise the battery packs and connectors so a common spec exists which 3rd party producers can work to. Batteries could then be interchanged between bikes. A certification should also exist so consumers know they are getting a good battery. A spec each for folding, town and cargo
    use cases should do it.

    Otherwise one ends up in the ridiculous situation that exists in (to pick one example) the cordless power tools market.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  4. Yodhrin
    Member

    @steveo Thing is, so are phone batteries, laptop batteries, car engines, and any number of other items which we take it for granted we can hand over to any third party repair shop we have faith will do a good job. Advocating for standardization and certification like MediumDave suggests is one thing, but asserting as CONEBI does that anything other than wholesale replacing parts with a new version of the part and only then through an official process with the original manufacturer or at a "dealership" to me stinks of an attempt to lock down the ebike platform for manufacturers' benefit, not ours.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  5. steveo
    Member

    The way to fix this is standardise the battery packs and connectors so a common spec exists

    One of the few times diy has the advantage tbh. they're largely standardised on the downtube case you can charge them with any 42v dc source.


    Thing is, so are phone batteries, laptop batteries, car engines, and any number of other items which we take it for granted we can hand over to any third party repair shop we have faith will do a good job.

    Laptops have a fraction of the power stored that an ebike battery and phones a fraction of that. Given how well standardisation has worked in the rest of the cycling industry, how many standard bottom brackets are on my three bikes, oh yeah three, brake systems, eerrm three, headsets two (things are improving). I don't hold out much hope for that. Lithium batteries have a limited life, beyond that they get even more dangerous.

    Replacing the battery whole sale is the safest thing and probably cheapest, recelling is a total pain and if you're paying someone a fair (UK) wage it won't be any cheaper than buying a prebuilt pack.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  6. Yodhrin
    Member

    You're rather sidestepping the point man - it's control over the process that's the core issue. The main reason I bring up laptops and phones is Apple, Samsung etc deploy *exactly* the same arguments when lobbying to prevent right to repair legislation for their products; it's too dangerous, the quality is too variable, only we can be trusted. But really, is an ebike battery that much more of a threat? Sure it contains more energy, but if your phone explodes it's going to be melting your trousers onto your leg before you can get it out whereas a bike battery going on fire would likely mean a panicked stop and running a few feet away; by the same token most people store their ebikes in sheds or garages, but if your laptop goes on fire at night your whole house could be ablaze before you even wake up. A Tesla contains what is it again, a few hundred ebikes worth of batteries? But people still want the right to take their Tesla to an independent garage and get the pack repaired or partially replaced rather than pay Tesla 15+ grand to replace the whole thing with a brand new one, which Tesla argue is the only "safe" option. If it's too dangerous for ebikes, it's too dangerous for almost anything.

    If someone goes to an unaffiliated bike shop of their choosing who through either prior experience or personal recommendation they trust, and they say the cheapest and easiest fix is to just buy a new battery pack of the original brand, okay sure why not, because they have no ulterior motive to push that option over others. But in the event partial replacement of the existing pack or a third party product would be better choices, or in the future when "original" parts that would be compatible with a given bike have been discontinued, the company making the bikes should not have the power to say "no".

    Posted 2 years ago #

  7. steveo
    Member

    No that is the point. If I reckon there is any chance that the court of public opinion is going to turn on me I'm doing everything I can to mitigate that.

    A phone battery goes up in your pocket it'll give a fairly significant burn, your bike battery you jump off and run. Assuming that the storage box isn't incorrectly sealed in which case you've got a frag grenade between your legs.

    Your battery isn't going to randomly burst into flames while it is at rest, discharge and charging are the problem. A big battery at a safe charging rate is an overnight job, most people are charging these things in their house. If that battery goes into thermal runaway you'll have a very significant house fire. The same reason I don't have third party batteries in my laptop (and that I don't charge it at night)

    Anyone willing to replace individual cells in a battery pack is complete moron. Especially at ev power levels.

    I can recell a battery in a few hours, call it two pretend I'm a maverick, what does a decent bike shop charge an hour? £40-£50? Good quality cells say £90 assuming you get them from China. Little under £200. Price up an ebike battery and get back to me.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  8. 14Westfield
    Member

    @steveo 500Wh battery packs are £900 and are an extra option for most cargo bikes etc.

    That will still be an enormous saving to recell a worn out pack, assuming compatible packs are still for sale in 10 years.

    In my view there needs to be a couple of high level design standards - mainly where overcharge and thermal cut outs should apply to the battery, the charger or both.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  9. steveo
    Member

    The problem with that isn't so much the replacement cost of the battery its the fact its three times the price per kw/h of a normal battery, even decathalon will do you 360wh battery for £300.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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