CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

AI and other forms of energy use / abuse

(12 posts)

  1. LaidBack
    Member

    Time we had a thread on this - accepting that even discussing it uses / mis-uses energy!

    From article from Pat Kane at weekend. ©National

    The most glaring for me is the model of artificial intelligence at the heart of this boosterism, which is particularly electricity-hungry – and which may itself not last long.

    The reasoning and creativity shown by chat-bots and agents are what excites governments and corporations about this technology (though maybe not so much excitement among the service and knowledge workers they’ll replace).

    But these AIs are enabled by training their software on vast knowledge archives, in which the artificial entity seeks the plausible patterns that answer your query. (LLMs, as these AIs are called, stands for “large language model”). To mine and map this material entails a massive and constant whirring of servers and algorithms. Thus the exponential demand for more electricity, powering the “compute” these large language models require.

    Yet what if that LLM model profoundly changed? Consider this. While our current AIs take multi-millions of watts to emulate the mental powers of a PhD student, a human brain takes 20 watts of energy to perform the same tasks, at the same level. (Biological evolution isn’t too shabby, sometimes…)

    As it happens, there is a developing model of AI, called “neuromorphic” computing. This aims to directly mimic the way that information and memory are smoothly integrated in the human brain. Intelligent software currently has to “jump between” information and memory, incurring a giant energy cost. (It’s called “the Von Neumann bottleneck”, if you want to nerd out)

    What if a burst of discovery and application brought AI models much closer to the energy-efficiency levels of the human brain?

    The future obsessions which we see with heavyweight EVs and electric planes are only part of the story.

    E-bikes of course combine our natural power so are 'sort of' ok? (My bias of course).

    Posted 1 week ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    Don’t forget the absurd energy use for cryptocurrency.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  3. Baldcyclist
    Member

    So long as we get to a place where it's clean and plentiful, who cares really what it is used for.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  4. LaidBack
    Member

    Plentiful might not be enough to support the growth of AI unless it can be made less hungry.

    Clean might include micro nuclear plants - certainly back on the UKGov agenda now.

    Maybe should have a poll here to see who is 'consciously' using AI and whether it can help with the planet's survival.

    I'm genuinely curious about what people think. @chdot mentions cryptocurrency - maybe some here use Bitcoin so think it's not absurd - if only it could reduce its inefficient use of energy.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  5. Baldcyclist
    Member

    We have our own ChatGPT based tool at work, I use it regularly, but not daily. We also have Copilot attached to microsoft products, I don't really use that.

    Personal use isn't really intended, I never go to a GPT tool, however I'm a Google pixel user so pretty much every web search gives a Gemini response, I do find I just ask stuff more often rather then spend time searching sites.

    Re Crypto, I've mentioned elsewhere on here that I do gamble a small ammount on tokens.I'd persoaly not spend a penny on crypto right now.
    Personal opinion is Bitcoin is probably useful. Most? certainly a lot of it is now mined using green electricity.

    The rest of the space I'd split, there is a lot of blockchain technology used in the real world, lots of you will be using, or exposed to blockchain without knowing (shipping/banks). A lot of the blockchain compainies issue tokens, some of which are used on their blockchains for fees, and some which are sold to raise funds. Those tokens really have no useful purpose (imo), and are really just speculative gambling, which is where I participate, small ammounts on high risk bets. If I lose, no matter.
    We chatted here a few years ago when markets were depressed, and I predicted crypto would return again, I made my bets for this cycle back then, I don't do short term bets. After this cycle is over there will be another one, and another. THe short version is, other than Bitcoin, crypto is a scam, but people will continue to gamble on it (and mostly lose their shirts).

    Back to AI, a number of the big companies who are racing are investing directly into the energy networks. and buying up, or even building their own power plants in the US.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  6. LaidBack
    Member

    @Baldcyclist - good round up of how these technologies interact with work and life.

    Although he casts doubts in the extract above, Pat Kane uses AI quite a bit to sort documents and tried out on a music brief. (For younger forumers OK is half of band Hue & Cry that had Labour of Love hit back when CDs ushered in digital entertainment in 80s).

    He brings in the Jevon Paradox which is that if a commodity is too cheap (plentiful) then the more it's used. I did wonder that as AI is probably writing songs 24/7 then creatives are threatened. His response is whatever the tech is someone will repurpose it (humanise it with flaws).
    My own other job of graphic design already has younger designers taking out backgrounds around people by AI. Old school Mac users using Photoshop are history! :-)

    So much of this virtual world though needs physical space and natural resources though and that's where it gets interesting.
    Battery storage, windfarms, new hydro, micro-nuclear (not here?) and the land it requires may hit a 'nimby' limit. Local wind farm has paid a few thousand to the community garden but suspect the increasing electrification of everything will have some push back.

    If course on LB bike sale front Bosch will have AI as a selling point. All models now encourage eFlow app with phone paired for software patches which does avoid so many traditional dealer updates for UAs.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  7. acsimpson
    Member

    Removing backgrounds is an interesting example and really just one of branding and incremental gains in my view. We've had magic selection tools for decades.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  8. LaidBack
    Member

    @acsimpson - yes Photoshop tools were around way back but generally only accessible to graphic nerds.
    AI allows general user to separate cluttered backgrounds much faster. Probably can add clipping path too.
    I need to research - just was told by someone that used it to prepare exhibition. Interestingly I still had to help them to do a print file pdf with correct format.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  9. CocoShepherd
    Member

    Out of interest, is anyone aware of any study (scientifically peer reviewed and published or otherwise) comparing energy use between bitcoin/cryptocurrencies and "real" money?

    I get it that mining crypto is energy intensive but is it any more energy and resource intensive than issuing and maintaining paper/plastic/metal forms of money? Would be good to know of a best guess comparison

    Posted 3 days ago #
  10. Dave
    Member

    ISTR bitcoin is already releasing 5-10x more carbon than the operation of all conventional banking / monetary systems, but I'm not sure of a source

    Posted 3 days ago #
  11. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Just a personal opinion, but I probably see BTC as being more like gold than than the financial industry, though maybe it competes there as well a bit (though clearly you can't wear BTC, but it is similar in terms of scarcity value as an asset).

    Stats seem to be, BTC mining accounts for about 0.2% of all carbon emmissisons, whilst Gold mining accounts for 0.3%.
    I couldn't find a bamking number in terms of X% of global emssions, but one article suggested bitcoin used 35% less energy than banking system:

    https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/environmental-cost-of-gold-mining

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2024/11/08/the-large-environmental-consequences-of-bitcoin-mining/

    https://www.ccn.com/news/technology/bitcoin-mining-environmental-impact-banking-more-damage/#:~:text=Bitcoin%20Mining's%20Greener%20Than%20Banking,-Payless%20Power%20conducted&text=This%20analysis%20revealed%20that%20the,than%20the%20traditional%20banking%20system.

    Safe to say they all use a lot of energy, suggest both banking and Bitcoin could reduce impact a lot by moving to Green electricity over time.

    *Articles found by random Googling, suspect there will be plenty other articles that agree/dispute the figures.

    Posted 2 days ago #
  12. cb
    Member

    Good article by Michael Liebreich on the subject of AI growth and power demand:

    https://about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-generative-ai-the-power-and-the-glory/

    There's also a spoken version on his Cleaning Up podcast if you'd rather listen.

    Posted 2 days ago #

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