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Are new MSPs 'cycle friendly'?

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    The results are still coming in, but already a lot of surprises and a lot of new faces.

    As suggested on another thread it looks like the SNP will be even more in charge than they have been for the past four years.

    The new SNP Government may not even need much support to get its programme through.

    There seems even less chance of the new Forth Bridge being cancelled or postponed - unless of course the state of the economy/finances/cuts are more severe than any party was suggesting in the campaign.

    One significant thing is that there will be a lot of new faces who may or may not be interested in improving things for pedestrians and cyclists, making cycle training (for school children and adults), upgrading facilities for cycle tourists etc.

    It'll be a few days before new MSPs get their offices/emails set up - perhaps 'we' should send a nice 'welcome/think cycle' message in an envelope with a stamp on it.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    BBC says -

    "0814 From John Curtice, the psephologist's psephologist (he crunches the election numbers). Here is the latest prediction for the final outcome. The latest Scotland prediction is now: SNP 68, Labour 38, Conservatives 13, Lib Dems 6, Scottish Greens three, Others one."

    Presume that's Margo.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. Morningsider
    Member

    While it is difficult to say how individual new MSPs will act, it is fair to say that the SNP and Labour (both of which will have substantial amounts of new members) have both a poor track record on cycling investment and interest in cycling generally.

    New members are highly unlikely to express an interest in cycling, as it is likely to mark them out as a "nutter" amongst their peer group.

    My prediction - five more years of platitudes with no substantial financial commitment.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Presume that's Margo.

    Well it's not George Galloway (made my day!) :D

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. Stepdoh
    Member

    Close call down my way, but I think we're the closest thing you get to a Labour safe seat these days, Chisholm survived a 2% swing to SNP.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. Stepdoh
    Member

    This this pretty much tells the story:

    Posted 13 years ago #
  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Whatever colour your political spots are, you have to give the SNP credit for doing so well (well, so far) with a system designed by Labour to keep them out!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. SRD
    Moderator

    Looks like 2 greens elected - Alison Johnstone Lothians and Patrick Harvie Glasgow, and Sarah Boyack (who I believe cycles?) is back as a regional member, despite losing her constituency battle.

    Hope that is right - I have been baffled by the reports up until now (BBC was saying 'other 1, +1' which made no sense at all, but now says 'other 3 +1' which is 2 greens and 1 independent.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    "Scottish Parliament election: Profiles of the candidates elected to serve in Edinburgh"

    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Scottish-Parliament-election-Profiles-of.6764169.jp

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. crowriver
    Member

    Oh dear. Predictably the SNP new boys (they are all male it seems) want to cancel the tram. I suppose they're all car enthusiasts who want to splurge on the new Forth bridge instead. They seem to have strong opinions about the tram issue, without backing these up with valid reasons. Unfortunately this reminds me a bit of the way Tories rant on about things they don't like, without regard to the consequences.

    If this is representative of the new intake of SNP MSPs, then I'm afraid we will be poorly represented for the next five years.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. crowriver
    Member

    I also note that the two SNP MSPs who are calling for the tram to be scrapped have both been employed by Lothian Buses. Conflct of interest there, methinks!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. druidh
    Member

    crowriver - please take your sorry, patrtisan anti-SNP rants somewhere else. If you'd been paying attention, you'd have found that (a) the first three "new" SNP MSPs were all ladies representing Lanarkshire and (b) the majority of folk in Edinburgh want nothing to do with a couple of miles of tram lines which might, or might not, eventually have a part in replacing part of the No. 22 bus route.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. SRD
    Moderator

    I'm not particularly pro or anti SNP*, but I don't think Crowriver's comments count as rants at all. Don't see that this is out of line with any of our previous discussions.

    *Happen to think they've governed pretty well in recent years, and see election results as a vote of confidence in Alec Salmond which I am generally happy to support, but didn't give them either of my votes.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    Calm down dearies.

    This Forum has remained pleasantly free of (party) political partisanship in the run up to the election - apart from a tiny amount of (understandable) 'I'm voting second vote Green' - which wasn't universally followed by the electorate!

    I started this thread before it was clear/certain that the SNP had an overall majority, but the purpose was to point out that a) (as Morningsider has emphasised) that politicians north and south of the border don't have much of a 'care about pedestrians/cyclists record' and b) (perhaps more important) that a lot of MSPs (of all parties) will be new to the SP.

    I suggest that politicians north of the border are less 'friends of the motorists' than some of their fellows further south.

    Having an overall majority means that the new (SNP) Government isn't going to cancel the planned Forth bridge. It'll also means no more money for Edinburgh's Tram - the merits of which can be debated endlessly. The fact remains that it is well past the 'merits' stage and will remain a can of worms that (whatever happens) will cost Council Tax payers cash.

    Look forward to a year of lively electioneering running up to the vote for the City of Edinburgh Council. (It's too early to say if the ruling Lib Dems councillors will suffer the same fate as the City's MSPs).

    The purpose of this thread remains to discuss whether any new MSPs are likely to be sympathetic to policies that might encourage walking and cycling. Merely being an occasional or regular cyclists doesn't necessarily mean pro-cycling action, (unless you are called Boris), but it might help.

    Scotland (more than England) is justifiably concerned about policies that affect people who rely on cars in remote(r) rural areas. But these are far fewer than those in urban areas - many of whom don't "have access to cars".

    There has been something of a boom in urban cycling in recent years - particularly in Edinburgh (where MSPs spend several days a week). It's well worth pointing out the benefits to MSPs (and that more could be done it encourage more people to walk/cycle more instead of driving).

    Coincidentally I saw Mr. Swinney yesterday pram-pushing his new baby. He is a very occasional leisure cyclist and drives a bit - but is more often chauffeured...

    He clearly believes in a conventional pro-business/growth agenda which leads to big-ticket items such as the Forth Bridge, M74 and Borders Rail. Over the next few years there are bound to be spending cuts in Scotland. Whether spending proposals in any of the party's manifestos were credible may emerge fairly soon.

    Spokes has done a lot of lobbying work (particularly on Mr. Swinney) asking for a higher proportion of the transport budget to be spent on walking/cycling - without much obvious effect.

    Being optimistic, the new Government will be looking for cost effect things (like cycle infrastructure) that could also save from other budgets (e.g. NHS costs - longer term).

    Being pessimistic walking/cycling will continue to be considered marginal/irrelevant/easy to chop.

    The more MSPs are persuaded of the benefits of more people cycling (particularly in urban areas) the better.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. Kim
    Member

    Yes what we need is a manifesto for active travel and just by chance here is one I draw up earlier...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. crowriver
    Member

    @druidh crowriver - please take your sorry, patrtisan anti-SNP rants somewhere else. If you'd been paying attention, you'd have found that (a) the first three "new" SNP MSPs were all ladies representing Lanarkshire and (b) the majority of folk in Edinburgh want nothing to do with a couple of miles of tram lines which might, or might not, eventually have a part in replacing part of the No. 22 bus route.

    I was not aware that Edinburgh or indeed Lothian had expanded to encompass Lanarkshire. I merely observed that all the new SNP MSPs in Lothian happen to male. All of them. Whatever happens in Lanarkshire is, I would guess, an issue for sons and daughters of Lanark.

    Might I also say that I am not anti-SNP in principle. However I find it disturbing that the party manages to tolerate some quite reactionary viewpoints, alongside of course those from others of a more progressive bent. The 'cancel the trams' mob are about as reactionary as one Mr. Clarkson of Top Gear fame. It's real knee-jerk stuff.

    I also find it inexplicable that certain candidates (now MSPs) from said party campaigned on a ticket of scrapping the trams, when it is clear very little money will be saved by doing so. Whatever the merits or otherwise of the scheme, it makes much more sense to complete it. What do Messrs MacDonald and co. plan to do about Edinburgh's transport problems if indeed the tram is cancelled? More buses perhaps? Apart from the fact that there is no room on the roads for more buses, and Princes Street has become a huge bus station already, there is that annoying little conflict of interest on Mr. MacDonald's part.

    Could it be that because the trams were approved by the other parties against the SNP's wishes, that certain elements in the party are just being a bit partisan about this issue? Surely not!

    As for active travel, as Spokes have noted, only the Tories were more vague on promising anything for cycling, walking, etc. The SNP were in a poor 4th place in Spokes' assessment of the party manifestos. So I daresay we can't expect very much from the new government as regards cycling investment.

    But never mind, the car drivers will get their roads and bridges, so that's alright then. "The majority of folk in Edinburgh" will be happy enough with that, presumably.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. SRD
    Moderator

    Okay, I shouldn't do this, as it is going back off topic, but it occurs to me that this: "the party manages to tolerate some quite reactionary viewpoints, alongside of course those from others of a more progressive bent" is exactly what I always said about the LibDems!! But, of course, this is exactly and always the case with nationalist parties.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. crowriver
    Member

    For the avoidance of doubt, Spokes (entirely non-partisan, except in a pro-cycling sense) appraisal of the various manifestos for Holyrood 2011:

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/2011/04/cycling-in-the-holyrood-manifestos-2/#more-2371

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    "Whatever the merits or otherwise of the scheme, it makes much more sense to complete it."

    Sadly 'we' the general public/Edinburgh council tax payers don't know if that is true or not.

    Irrespect of whether or not it was a good idea or whether the implementation has been made more difficult by party political rivalries, no-one seems to know the answers to key questions.

    These include -

    Cost to complete to a) Haymarket b) St. A Sq. C) Newhaven.

    Cost of cancelling contract

    Cost to 'us' of raising money to complete to a, b or c.

    Expected running cost/subsidy - more likely if only part route is completed.

    There can be no doubt that there are already too many buses on Princes Street. It is far from clear how many would be replaced by trams - even if the line went all the way through Leith.

    Obviously there will (probably) never be a time when 'most' people cycle, but imagine what might have happened if £500m had been spent on cycle infrastructure!!!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot Obviously there will (probably) never be a time when 'most' people cycle, but imagine what might have happened if £500m had been spent on cycle infrastructure!!!

    Ah, the stuff that dreams are made of...

    @SRD exactly what I always said about the LibDems!!

    Quite. Presumably that's why the majority of former Lib Dem voters apparently found it more palatable to defect to the SNP than, say Labour or the Greens.

    Isn't it traditional to vote Liberal if you're in the military?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot Sadly 'we' the general public/Edinburgh council tax payers don't know if that is true or not.

    Irrespect of whether or not it was a good idea or whether the implementation has been made more difficult by party political rivalries, no-one seems to know the answers to key questions.

    These include -

    Cost to complete to a) Haymarket b) St. A Sq. C) Newhaven.

    Cost of cancelling contract

    Cost to 'us' of raising money to complete to a, b or c.

    Expected running cost/subsidy - more likely if only part route is completed.

    All valid points.

    Rather than try to answer, I ask instead whether say, the M74 extension in Glasgow was completed on time or on budget? If not, were further funds forthcoming from the Scottish government or was Glasgow city told "no more cash" and forced to pick up the tab?

    Ah, but of course roads are national projects of strategic importance, whereas trams must be just bloated vanity projects dreamt up by tinpot local councillors. That must be why the response is different when contractors start gouging the budget for cost overruns...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "Ah, the stuff that dreams are made of..."

    Precisely.

    Just because of years of 'well even if it wasn't spent on that it wouldn't be spent on what you want' and realistic expectations of much of the same ways of working/thinking in the future, it shouldn't mean completely giving up!

    Especially at a time when new MSPs may (or may not) have a different view of where Scotland could be heading for the rest of the 21st century - and more importantly - whether the lives of the people living here could be better if some things were thought about in less 'more of the same' ways.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. SRD
    Moderator

    whether the lives of the people living here could be better if some things were thought about in less 'more of the same' ways.

    Whatever we all think of the Borisbikes, it is a good example of how political will and a bit of blue sky thinking can really transform things. Hopefully a lesson some of our legislators will take on board.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    @crowriver

    M74 v Ed Tram is probably similar to £500 for tram or cycle infrastructure - i.e. not directly comparable.

    As far as I am aware the M74 was 'on time and on budget'.

    I'm sure your implication that if it had needed more money it would have got it is correct. But that is not the point about 'where we are' and 'what happens next'.

    Whether the past four years of the tram saga is the fault of the (past) SNP (minority) government, CEC, tie, Transport Scotland, the consortium/main contractor/key politicians/officials/other/all or none of the above is, now, past the point.

    The chance of the (new) SNP (majority) government giving more money for finishing the tram remains small. Whether that is spite, good/bad politics, good/bad judgement etc. will probably never be pinned down.

    In a perfect world we might have had a perfect congestion charging scheme that the majority of voters would have been perfectly happy to vote for.

    Or a previous government that didn't make CEC have a referendum (not sure if Ken Livingston would have been able to go ahead with CC in London if it had been decided by referendum).

    Might be nice if local authority funding was different - which allowed French cities to pay for trams more easily (apparently) etc.

    Your points about national/local/vanity priorities/project are of course valid. It might be better if we had some of the strategic overview that was around in the days of Lothian Regional Council. That opened railway stations and laid a lot of cycle paths. It also came in and had to pay to cancel the plan to (effectively) bring the M8 to Lothian Road (Western Approach Road) - where (further out) they are currently trying to put the tram.

    But another past past government did away with all that.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "it is a good example of how political will and a bit of blue sky thinking can really transform things. Hopefully a lesson some of our legislators will take on board."

    YEP

    and/but

    Posted 12 years ago #
  26. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot As far as I am aware the M74 was 'on time and on budget'.

    Or maybe not, according to the Evening Times in 2009:

    AFTER 36 YEARS, THE M74 'MISSING LINK' BEGINS TO TAKE SHAPE

    IT has taken 36 years of talking, delays, frustration and recriminations - but at last the M74 extension through Glasgow is taking shape.

    The so-called "road to nowhere" and "missing link" in the Scottish motorway network will soon be no more.

    All along the five-mile route between the Fullarton Interchange near Carmyle and the Kingston Bridge, workmen and diggers are transforming the landscape.

    <snip>

    n 1972 work on the M74 was ended - leaving the five-mile gap. Since then costs have rocketed and it is already running three years late.

    The estimate in 2001 was £245m - by May last year that had risen to £692m. At £26,400 per ft - or just over £80,000 a metre - it is Britain's most expensive road.

    Residents and commuters can now see only a series of giant building sites - as well as the 13 bridges, there will be four major road junctions built, at the Kingston Bridge, Polmadie Road, Cambuslang Road and Fullarton Road.

    http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/video-the-right-road-1.966338

    It seems the M74 is well past the merit/demerit stage too. Unlike the Edinburgh trams, however, the SNP government was and is fully committed to the project. Despite it tripling in cost.

    Regardless of factors like environmental impact of motorways vs. light rail, regeneration issues, and the like, it appears that somehow, business and politicians come together to support infrastructure projects in Glasgow, without worrying about the cost. Here in Edinburgh, they always seem to be at loggerheads instead, and cost is everything.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    "As far as I am aware the M74 was 'on time and on budget'."

    Obviously I meant the recent contract.

    I am NOT in any way defending/supporting the M74.

    "it appears that somehow, business and politicians come together to support infrastructure projects in Glasgow, without worrying about the cost."

    Not sure how relevant the location is. I'm sure politics was involved to the extent that the SNP didn't want to have to deal with Labour taunts - in addition to ones they got when they cancelled GARL and EARL. Plus of course they - along with most UK parties do not question anything to do with the economics of (more) roadbuilding.

    Unfortunately they weren't willing to side with any of the 'environmental justice' or 'economic realities' arguments, that would have have been a turning point.

    "Here in Edinburgh, they always seem to be at loggerheads instead, and cost is everything."

    Not sure which "they" you mean. Business is generally in favour (apart from the shops down Leith Walk which have had the 'pain' but don't look like they will be getting the benefits).

    "Cost" is a bit important. Whether trams should be a 'local' or 'national' project is a past issue. It would be nice if Fife had to pick up the cost of the new bridge...

    I would be nice if the trams were on time -

    Or if there was a budget (to the nearest £100m). It would be great if there was unlimited money to pay for everything. It would be good if there was a rational Edinburgh/Scottish/UK transport policy, but, but, but...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin


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