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"push should be - very high quality continuous segregated cycling infrastructure

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    Just one chunk from a long and interesting article -

    "
    We need radically to restructure our urban mobility systems in ways which will get people out of their cars and make them cycle. Half of the infrastructural change required is underway – the push for a maximum speed limit of 20 mph on residential streets is gaining momentum. But the other half of the key infrastructural change required needs a similar push, and this push should be for very high quality and continuous segregated cycling infrastructure on our biggest and busiest urban roads, the kind of roads on which almost everyone today refuses to cycle.

    The task might seem enormous, even impossible. But it’s not. Think about how things change. Our research has made very clear the normality among a large proportion of the population of using a car for short journeys. But this normality has been produced over only the last fifty or sixty years. We used to travel differently, and we will do so again.

    "

    http://www.bikehub.co.uk/news/sustainability/save-our-cities-build-for-bicycles-not-cars

    Posted 12 years ago #

  2. cc
    Member

    Yes, yes, *yes*. I agree wholeheartedly. Such a sensible article.

    What I found particularly interesting was his admission that he used to be strongly *against* proper separate cycle infrastructure, but was eventually forced to change his mind by the overwhelming evidence pointing the other way.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "What I found particularly interesting was his admission that he used to be strongly *against* proper separate cycle infrastructure"

    Yes that was instructive.

    I am not an "all cyclists should be on the road" person. Much less an "all cyclists should be off the road" one.

    I definitely want better cycle infrastructure and the £500m squandered on the tram would probably have been enough.

    But in an 'it's the economy stupid'/'no money' world (unless you want a BIG new bridge), I'm not sure where the 'future' will come from.

    Very low cost measures such as blanket 20mph on urban roads would be a start - would shift a small number away from cars and a slightly higher number onto bikes and would begin to signal that 'things are going to be done differently'.

    But a long way from 'a complete change of transport policy'. Dave Horton was explicitly talking about England where a change of direction seems even less likely than here.

    The only exception is in London (bit half hearted) where the politicians hang out but don't seem to notice.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  4. Dave
    Member

    The problem is, as ever, getting *proper* segregated cycle infrastructure. There's almost no price I wouldn't pay to have the whole of Edinburgh linked by high speed segregated, grade-separated paths like the Roseburn. On the other hand, there's no imaginable way I would welcome (or even use) a large proportion of the segregated infrastructure that does appear when built in the UK today. In that respect I am strongly "pro road"..?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  5. wee folding bike
    Member

    We already have an infrastructure which we have a right to use.

    We pay for it.

    I'd control car driver speeds and behaviour rather than have us in ghettos. It's the UK, cycle paths will be rubbish and Mr Toad will complain if we invade his space at any point when he has paid for his "road tax" and provided us with an alternative.

    Control the threat before you place a further burden on those threatened... not that we are very threatened.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Ultimately, it's a question about how the politicians we vote for want London to function. And I agree completely with this statement on Londonist.com:

    The big issue here is that it should not be necessary to involve members of the London Assembly in individual junction design. There needs to be a clear policy set at City Hall and TfL needs to implement that policy in a consistent and open way. Sadly the Mayor is far from clear about what he wants (‘smoothing traffic’ and a ‘cycling revolution’ are not natural bed fellows) and TfL have not been voluntarily open in this case
    What we need is a London Plan that gives proper priority to cycling and walking, but as the Government Inspectors pointed out, what we have now does not.
    "

    Link here

    Posted 12 years ago #

  7. cc
    Member

    The further ahead Groningen, Drenthe and the rest of the Netherlands pull away from us, and the more other places run to catch up with them, the bigger the contrast will be with the UK. Eventually there will be movement here. I won't give up on it.

    Things *can* change. Not so long ago gay rights seemed like a hopeless battle in the UK. When I was a teenager gay sex was illegal and I'm only in my 40s. Look at the change now! It's incredible. Civil partnerships, equality laws, and they're talking of marriage being legalised too. Cycling will get there too.

    Change *will* come, and common sense will prevail. It'll take some years and a lot of campaigning but it *will* happen. The pressure will get too great for it not to.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  8. crowriver
    Member

    @cc Change *will* come, and common sense will prevail. It'll take some years and a lot of campaigning but it *will* happen. The pressure will get too great for it not to.

    It would nice to think so, but there are a lot of vested business interests related to the car and road haulage industries which are not only fighting any change, but also pushing for more and faster roads (eg. the new Forth bridge, M74 extension, dualling of the A9, etc.).

    If we can achieve 20mph zones across city centres, strict liability legislation, and a ban on HGVs entering city centres (like they have in Germany), the cycling lobby will have won a major victory given the rather reactionary, pro-motoring political climate in the UK.

    Frankly I can't see mass segregated infrastructure happening to the standard obtained in places like Denmark, Netherlands or Germany. Look at the struggle Sustrans has just to negotiate (let alone maintain) the somewhat patchy, incomplete off-road network we currently have. Remember that the National Cycle Network was a Millenium project, funded by the lottery. It did not exist 12 years ago, though there were a few disconnected paths kicking around in certain cities like Edinburgh.

    Lobbying to improve and properly maintain the Sustrans network and existing on-road cycle lanes/ASLs would be a start. Organisations like Spokes are doing a good job here and need support from ordinary cyclists.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    "Change *will* come, and common sense will prevail. It'll take some years and a lot of campaigning but it *will* happen. The pressure will get too great for it not to."

    Perhaps.

    Maybe it's easier campaigning against something that is 'wrong' rather than campaigning for something that is 'right'.

    There seems to be a UK political assumption that cyclists are a minority (true) and will always be so (probably) and that cars/motoring/motorists are normal (better even) and, aspirational what citizens/voters want/to be.

    Motorists = voters, motoring = progress = economic activity = good thing etc.

    Any downside - road deaths, pollution, death of town centres etc. is 'unfortunate'. Anyone advocating anything different is naïve/deluded/dangerous.

    The fact that it works elsewhere is because of weather/flatness/backwardness/lack of the advanced car economy that has made Britain Great.

    Delete above to conform to chosen stereotype.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  10. cc
    Member

    Judging by A View From The Cycle Path the Dutch transport infrastructure is undergoing pretty much continuous rebuilding - loads of business there for the construction industry. And once cycling increases, shops and businesses switch to being enthusiastically pro-cycling and anti-car.

    As I say, it makes too much sense not to happen in the long term. This is not a uniquely crap country for transport planning. It is somewhat crap, but that just means that it'll take longer. Eventually the leaders will be so very far ahead that even the British dimwits will start to wonder why, and will want more of what they have. It'll happen. Eventually.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  11. crowriver
    Member

    @cc How long term is that though? My guess is I'll be well into pensionable age before Netherlands style infrastructure happens here. I wish it would not be so, and I will campaign for change.

    However if you look at the transport policies of the current governments here in Scotland and south of the border, there's little hope of much change in the next five years at least. Of the opposition, only the Greens have a positive pro-cycling policy. Even Labour, the most positive of the mainstream parties, are a little non-commital on cycling.

    The current segregated infrastructure is piecemeal, underfunded, quite often badly designed or implemented, and many parts are poorly maintained. If Dutch style infrastructure ever happens, it is likely to be a very long haul indeed.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  12. cc
    Member

    Yes, it's likely to be a long haul!
    The various changes in the law for gay people - which to me seemed like an equally tectonic, unachievable change when I was younger - took a few decades. Unless we come up with something brilliant, the huge cycle changes needed will take that long too. (But they will happen. Because just imagine what the NL, Germany etc. will look like by then!)

    I think it was Hembrow again (not sure though) who pointed out that the Dutch changes came from a huge campaign concentrating on child safety (vis a vis cars). And that there are an awful lot of parents, and they can fight very hard when they want to.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    "But they will happen. Because just imagine what the NL, Germany etc. will look like by then!"

    Not sure how much 'other people do it differently/better' arguments influence things.

    National Governments (UK and Scottish - with or without independence) like to pretend they have high degrees of autonomy/sovereignty, but other factors are often 'bigger'.

    Presumably EU could do more, some people would resist on principle. Bigger influences are things like oil availability/price.

    Whoever is in charge of NHS could decide that road 'accidents' have to be covered by motor insurance rather than taxation. Perhaps medical intervention in obesity could be paid for by food companies.

    I'm not saying they should, just that at the moment such possibilities seem as likely as a change of view on cycle infrastructure.

    "there are an awful lot of parents, and they can fight very hard when they want to"

    Well there is the MumsNet effect.

    Are its members ready for a blanket 20mph campaign - and a restriction on driving children to school?

    CEC could ban teachers (and all other employees) parking on CEC premises - or at least make them pay for parking - but I don't see that happening either.

    Cyclists aren't persecuted/criminalised enough for the gay analogy to work.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  14. Min
    Member

    ""there are an awful lot of parents, and they can fight very hard when they want to"

    Well there is the MumsNet effect.

    Are its members ready for a blanket 20mph campaign - and a restriction on driving children to school?"

    It depends how deeply ingrained is the FACT that the only way to protect your child is to drive it everywhere in the biggest car you can afford.

    There is one particularly annoying advert going around at the moment where the worried parents of a newborn would be no better than child abusers if they didn't buy special tyres for their car.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  15. crowriver
    Member

    @Min There is one particularly annoying advert going around at the moment where the worried parents of a newborn would be no better than child abusers if they didn't buy special tyres for their car.

    I seem to remember a similar ad in the 1990s for VW I think, set in NYC where a little goldilocks girl is 'safe' from the big bad city by virtue of being locked inside the car!

    @chdot Cyclists aren't persecuted/criminalised enough for the gay analogy to work.

    I think Yehuda Moon gives us a more accurate parallel in the Shaker community. Cyclists are regarded as being members of an eccentric, vegetarian, sandal wearing, puritan cult who would rather punish themselves than indulge in the 'luxurious pleasure' of driving a car. Bizarre, I know.

    It does help though explain the look of incredulity on most people's faces when I explain that, no, we don't own a car; yes, we transport children on bicycles; yes, even on the road; yes, in the rain too; yes we both have jobs; etc. ad nauseum.

    Many literally cannot believe it and either want to find out what is 'wrong' with us or proceed to extoll the benefits of driving and car ownership as if we'd never considered it nor experienced it before.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    Talking of MumsNet did search for 20 mph, this was top of list http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1225139-to-think-it-is-hard-driving-at-20mph .

    All answers supportive (and contain words rarely used on this forum!)

    Next post more 'normal'

    http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/568259-do-landrovers-spontaneously-combust-when-they-go-over-20-mph/AllOnOnePage

    Posted 12 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    More mumsnet - http://www.mumsnet.com/info/search?query=cycling

    "I'd love to take up cycling but I would just be terrified of taking a bike out on the roads as they are so busy nowadays. I always think that parents with their kids on the seat on the back of the bike are really cool but I'm too chicken to do it myself.I know there are cycle paths. No doubt if dd takes up cycling I won't sleep at night."

    Mixture of responses -

    http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1024768-To-be-scared-of-cycling-on-the-road-in-this/AllOnOnePage

    Posted 12 years ago #

  18. Min
    Member

    That Landrover one is hilarious. The complainer goes on about how she is forced to drive behind people going at 20mph every day on a straight, wide road then at the end admits that she doesn't just overtake them as it seems "arsy" and she isn't in a hurry anyway!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    After a quick glance I've decided I'm not going to read Mumsnet. It wouldn't do any good.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "After a quick glance I've decided I'm not going to read Mumsnet."

    Aye, stick with the wise and witty forum.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  21. Min
    Member

    Which one is that?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  22. steveo
    Member

    The evening news comments board surely!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  23. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Even better on the LandRover thread is this bit:

    "I'm one of those annoying people who drive right up someone's arse when they are being slow just to make sure they know I'm annoyed! lol"

    I think you mean:

    "Gosh, aren't I just awful! I'm a dangerous driver lol but I don't mind and I think it's all very funny!"

    Give me strength.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    "The evening news comments board surely!"

    "I'm new to the Scotsman comments sections and see nothing wrong with the quality or diversity of postings or debate. Surprisingly better quality postings here than at many other news forums. Maybe you're upset that people don't share your bizarre views? Maybe you're just a sad troll."

    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Vote-for-me-to-get.6784205.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#6233346

    Posted 12 years ago #

  25. cc
    Member

    Cyclists aren't persecuted/criminalised enough for the gay analogy to work.

    Didn't say they were (*); the point was that the attitude shift is equally big, and at this point maybe equally hopeless looking, as it seemed a few decades ago for gay rights. And we won that one.

    (*) although it's arguable - I certainly feel pretty persecuted when I cycle in a busy road with motor traffic!

    Posted 12 years ago #

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