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http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Police-shoot-down-slower-speed.6808950.jp
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
South Central 20 mph
(175 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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Jings, you're quoted again!
Posted 12 years ago # -
PLANS for a huge 20mph zone across the south of the Capital have been thrown into doubt after police chiefs said they would not enforce it.
But there are now doubts over how the scheme will work after the police said they would be unwilling to enforce it in quieter residential streets
so. Did they say they "would not" or they were "unwilling". There's a big difference. I think it's the latter, but that's the chipwrapper for you.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Clearly someone at the EN is reading this forum...
Posted 12 years ago # -
Probably less of an issue than it first appears. They are unwilling to enforce the 30mph limit in residential streets just now, but that's not accepted as a reason to remove the limit.
A few law abiding motorists can enforce a speed limit at busy times and even a reduced limit, but at quieter times it'll be the law of the jungle, as now.
Posted 12 years ago # -
" Did they say they "would not" or they were "unwilling"."
I think the answer is BOTH.
Refusing to enforce on 'main' roads and "unwilling" in side streets.
Disgraceful.
Posted 12 years ago # -
They have been saying this all along so I don't know why it is being sprung as an issue now. The council have just been saying they will "monitor speeds" as a response.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Finally Rugal appears!
"Chris Hill, from online forum CityCyclingEdinburgh.info, said: "I am disappointed that the officials are recommending that the bus routes should remain as 30mph. I hope the councillors ignore this."
Idiot."
Posted 12 years ago # -
Probably less of an issue than it first appears. They are unwilling to enforce the 30mph limit in residential streets just now.
Precisely.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Probably less of an issue than it first appears. They are unwilling to enforce the 30mph limit in residential streets just now, but that's not accepted as a reason to remove the limit."
Yes (as Anth says).
"They have been saying this all along so I don't know why it is being sprung as an issue now."
EXACTLY
So why are they caving in???
Even Ian Craig (LB) in that article doesn't actually say he's against the idea.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I finally had to post...
"#20
"... speed does not kill. Bad driving kills."
"... grossly deluded if you actually believe all that "speed kills" rubbish!"
But, let's be fair, it's not just 'bad driving' on its own that kills either. BOTH are a factor. Basically bad driving + speed kills. Basic physics innit. Bad driver at 20mph is going to cause less damage than bad driver at 40mph... Surely we should be trying to limit BOTH factors?
p.s. my motah has a 6 speed box. At 30 in the city it tells me to drive in 5th. At 20mph it reckons 4th. But then what do German automotive engineers know eh? ;)"
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Idiot"
Fame at last!
Posted 12 years ago # -
Anth - great post. I can just imagine the EEN trolls "Guy with 6 speed car argues for lower speed limits...what?...how?...why?"
chdot - truly, you have arrived!
Posted 12 years ago # -
Aye, but he's basically responded saying that the indicators for gear changes are basically useless because they don't take account of the route ahead. He's right on that, but again surely it's all part of being a 'good driver' to know when to ignore the instruction? I've posted again, in danger of being drawn in. Back to work!
Posted 12 years ago # -
To be fair to the police, they will have said that with the priorities they currently have and the resources they have, they will be unable to enforce a 20mph speed limit on every road. What would we like them to stop doing so that they can do that? We have policing by consent in the UK in the main; most people obey laws because they see the point of them and the benefits rather than because they fear the revenge of the law. I see little attempt by the council to persuade car drivers of the benefits (and of the lack of a significant increase to journey times by a reduction in the max speed limit) and in that case, what can the police realistically do?
Posted 12 years ago # -
I don't think anyone here is actually having a go at the police, but rather the council taking the police response as 'do not do this' (which they aren't saying) and the press then reporting that as being the case as well.
As has been pointed out, they don't police the 30mph limit on most roads, so a change to not policing the 20mph limits would be, well, no change. That's not the fault of the police, but one of funding, a separate issue.
The council's misinterpretation is inexcusable really.
Posted 12 years ago # -
These read to me like a shrug from the police, kind of a "they are your roads do as you please response"
Posted 12 years ago # -
Alternative Fuel-HeaD (or whatever he's called) is currently tying himself up in knots trying to keep the excuses flowing.
Apparently 20mph makes people bored and their mind wanders onto other things and this isn't anything they can do anything about;
Driving on a dull motorway he NEVER gets bored and anyone who does isn't driving correctly...
Posted 12 years ago # -
My emails today
Mine To: Steve Burgess; Gordon Mackenzie; Ian Perry; Cameron Rose
Subject: Traffic Regulation Order (TRO/11/17) for the 20mph Speed Limit Pilot in SouthGuys, I am writing to express a deep concern for the outcome of this proposal.
I cycle 3-4 times a week to work, from my home along Beaufort Road, Strathearn Road through to Morningside and onward to Edinburgh Park.I was very pleased with the amended proposal to include Grange Road, Strathearn Road, Beaufort Road in the pilot – but now it appears it will be dropped.
I always knew Melville Drive would be a trade off for the 20mph zone, but to include these drives a coach and horses through the scheme.
Frankly, we all know that whatever we do, some people will still speed, and will still use the arterial routes, however a 20mph advisory would help limit accidents.
I live there, and can tell you that its impossible to drive at 30 mph along strathearn road – too many parked cars/buses etc – so the Lothian buses argument is spurious.
As a cyclist, and a driver, I can tell you exactly what will happen:
Cars will speed up on Melville drive and the roads mentioned above in response to a limit elsewhere.
More cyclist and pedestrian accidents / deaths may occur.
Nobody in my position could possibly use the 20 mph zones to get to work, as I would have to cycle along streets of cobbles (ask any cyclist, they will explain), and hence I will get an incredible 150yards of 20mph on my street (which is quiet anyway) before hitting the speeding traffic – brilliant.And what of my son who attends sciennes primary – am I to believe that this halfway house will make me trust that I can allow him to cycle to school any time soon ?
I understand that there have been some objections the other way, but I would appeal to you – on behalf of residents, kids, pedestrians to make comments / representations against dropping these roads from the 20mph zone.
I look forward to hearing from you.From: Cameron Rose [mailto:Cameron.Rose@edinburgh.gov.uk]
Sent: Thu 28 July 2011 13:33
To:Cc: Subject: RE: Traffic Regulation Order (TRO/11/17) for the 20mph Speed Limit Pilot in SouthNiall,
But this is as you describe it - a half way house. The addition of Causewayside remains (there are other additional factors there), and balance is sought after the representations of the police and Lothian Buses.
There are lots of often conflicting criteria underpinning the issue and a balance has to be struck.
I appreciate your route is affected by the uncertainty. I rather think it is possible to drive in Strathearn Road at 30. Certainly not in peak periods - but that is one of the points made - that speed limits are the same round the clock.
I expect to be at the Committee on Tuesday and will bear your comments in mind. I note that there will be a review of how it is working around 18 months after implementation - when revisions can be considered.
For your information (in case you have not seen it) the report is here.
Best wishes,
Mine to Cameron Rose
Cameron, many thanks for the swift response.
I had read the report already.
Final point regarding the speed limit on strathearn road – I appreciate that it is actually feasible to drive at 30mph if there is nothing coming the other way – but to take one of Lothian Buses points regarding the number 5 – they have already noted earlier this year that it runs slower than the timetable at that point (for the reasons I have noted) so what difference will a reduction in speed limit make ?
I don’t expect you to answer the questions, and I do appreciate the need for balance – but halfway houses rarely satisfy anyone.
regards
NiallDont think he appreciated my sarcastic comment about speeds on strathearn road! The other councillors must be on holiday, got out of office messages
Posted 12 years ago # -
"To be fair to the police"
Happy to be.
Assuming the Police are just conveying 'the facts' - ie resources/priorities etc. AND the fact that it's 'no change there then' it must be the fault of council officials assuming Police would do something they clearly won't be willing/able to do.
SO either some officials are incompetent (there's more than one set involved here) or the consultation process was a bit of a sham (surely not...) - other variations on those two permutations are available.
Whatever the precise role/attitude of police/officials the fact remains this is political. There needs to be political leadership willing to say 'we have always said that 20 mph is a good idea and we intend to see it implemented - not least because we have had significant local support'
BUT....
If anyone gets on well with any particular Edinburgh Councillors/MSPs/MPs it would be worth drawing their attention to this in the next few days.
Posted 12 years ago # -
And the posts on the story have dried up...
Posted 12 years ago # -
This talk of the "natural speed" of roads is making me wonder with which email address I'm registered at scotsman.com. It reminds me of sayings like "driving to the conditions" and "driving within my ability" when uttered in response to asking a known over-enthusiastic driver what caused their latest crash.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Since when did the Police choose which laws to enforce? Are we living in a democracy or not? There has been an extensive consultation on the proposed speed limit change, which has been widely supported, with many community groups asking for it to cover more roads in the area. Why should LRT and the Police be allowed to over rule this?
Posted 12 years ago # -
@ Kim, They don't, they are given targets to meet.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Dont think he appreciated my sarcastic comment about speeds on strathearn road!
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I really don't think a lot of non-cyclists "get" the concept of average speeds. If a road is a 30mph limit, to their mind that means the average speed along it is 30mph. Even if they could actually reach a maximum of 30mph on it (still think that is unlikely in a lot of Edinburgh in traffic), you would have to enter the road section in question exactly on 30mph and not drop below that speed for the whole length to achieve that as an average. And if you did drop your speed at any point, even by a fraction, you'd have to speed to make up your average.
In any sort of traffic I think even the "24mph" is an overly high and rather spurious estimate. My average across town from door to office is usually 16 or 17mph and I regularly and quite easily beat cars from Haymarket to Drumbrae, despite the fact they can and do go (much) faster than my maximum of 22-24mph. But as us cyclists know, it doesn't matter how fast you can actually go, you always catch them at the lights or in traffic which brings your average speeds close to the same. The faster you actually go, often the more time you spend sitting at lights, or the quicker you get to (and the more time you spend in) the traffic. We know this when we pass a slower cyclist only to see them appear alongside us again in the next ASL - which I guess happens to most of us every day.
More drivers need to try some time trialling, it really gets your brain in motion trying to calculate about maximum and average speeds and what speed not to try and drop below and what speed not to try and exceed on different sections so as not to tire yourself out prematurely.
I will try and craft this into some sort of response to councillors, I'd like to try my bus timetable average speed calculation first though.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Kim, of course the police have to pick and choose what their priorities are, otherwise they'd be too busy arresting litter louts near police stations to investigate murders (to put up an obvious and extreme strawman, but you get the drift). [See for example the HS speech here http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/media-centre/speeches/acpo-summer
@Kaputnik, yup, absolutely on average speed. They also dont seem to understand the concept of the funnel, ie that two lanes dont noticeably speed up traffic unless there are two uninterupted lanes for the whole length of the journey.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@kaputnik And if you did drop your speed at any point, even by a fraction, you'd have to speed to make up your average.
Which is exactly what many drivers do, it would seem!
Posted 12 years ago # -
My questions, with Octane Heid's response - it's at this moment you realise nothing you say can sway the course (well, okay, I knew that anyway).
"Why is it bad driving to get bored and distracted at 70mph [he'd suggested this], but inevitable to get bored and distracted at 20mph in the city? [and also suggested this - strange dichotomy]"
Because 70mph (or if we are being honest, 70mph+) is an appropriate speed for a motorway. Conversely, 20mph is NOT an appropriate speed to use as a blanket restriction around most roads in town.
Posted 12 years ago # -
If I had a helmet camera, I would make a little youtube film of my commute to demonstrate this. Set my phone to use GPS to work out maximum and current speed and time and position to calculate a rolling average.
The film would be speeded up from my 20-25ish minutes and show how the average speed changes across the commute compared to actual and maximum (each displayed in big numbers, real-time on bottom of frame)
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I've said it before and I'll say it again. I really don't think a lot of non-cyclists "get" the concept of average speeds."
I know that is a general remark but slightly in response to Cllr Rose's comments.
HE actual does cycle, so I too am disappointed that he seems willing to go along with the officials' recommendations.
Posted 12 years ago #
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