CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
I signed up for email alerts when new papers are put onto the council website for this committee (and for the committees relating to the dept I work for).
Here is today's page.
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/2478/transport_infrastructure_and_environment_committee
Welcome news on pavements to be redesignated as shared use on Seafield Road and around the Botanics.
They really need to do something about the access to the improved shared path between Leith Academy and Seafield though: the stairs near the old Eastern Infirmary are dreadful, and the low-stepped bridge across to Leith Links is not really good enough, especially the rutted (often muddy) track between there and the new tarmac further west.
"They really need to do something about the access to the improved shared path between Leith Academy and Seafield though"
CEC is definitely working on all this.
The worst muddy bit (at end of lovely new bit) is 'on hold' because of some black and white animal's nesting season.
There are plans for a proper alternative to the current (cyclist guerilla action) ramp a bit further south, but it crosses land owned by Scottish Water and some bit of the NHS so...
There is also a firm plan for a ramp at the Leith Links.
More importantly there is money allocated for all/most of this - with expectations of work being done by next summer.
Have also posted on Talk Porty.
Any thoughts on choice between widening the Seafield Rd pavements vs improving the path along the railway?
And will the complete stretch from Prom to Marine Dr to widened, or just from the bridge?
L/
Not such good news on the 20mph zones pilot. CEC have caved in to objections from the police and LRT and kept 30mph on so-called 'strategic routes' such as Marchmont Road, Kilgraston Road, Blackford Avenue, West Mains Road, Esslemont Road, Church Hill, Strathearn Road, Grange Road.
Coppers cited inability to enforce speed limits in future (code for staffing losses?) and LB was concerned about having to subsidise bus routes more heavily due to them travelling more slowly.
Surely a few speed cameras and re-jigged timetables would be better than allowing rat runs past schools and high density residential streets?
This does not bode well, but at least Causewayside will be calmed down a bit.
I'd like to see 20mph zones across the rest of the city too. When can we expect this I wonder?
"Any thoughts on choice between widening the Seafield Rd pavements vs improving the path along the railway?"
It ought to be better, but it's owned by RailTrack who (seem to) like being difficult.
CEC also says it's difficult to deal with the area round the level crossing (partly) because of lorries from the docks.
I recently rode (illegally of course) on this bit of pavement because the person I was with didn't fancy the rough path. I was confident that I wouldn't meet any pedestrians.
WIdening the pavement (but not the bit on the bridge) will improve this general route much more quickly than waiting for the path to be improved.
The Seafield 'path' by the sewage works is okay if you don't mind nettle stings and bramble thorn cuts to your legs, arms and face. I tried it once: never again!
The last time I went over my handlebars it was at the Seafield bridge. Handlebar clipped the railing which is there to protect from the chevron signs... and because of all that the pavement is very narrow there.
Would be good to get that infrastructure moved so it doesn't restrict the pavement width.
"if you don't mind nettle stings and bramble thorn cuts to your legs"
Ah yes, maybe it was that they didn't fancy.
Crowriver - Thats really disappointing, and basically means that my entire commute route to Edinburgh Park is unaffected (except for the 150 yards from my front door to the main road - whoopee).
In fact, because of 'driver frustration' arguably the main road (Beaufort / Strathearn / Grange road) will become faster and more dangerous for cyclists.
I could use the new 20mph zone, of course, but dont fancy the Roubaix-like cobbles in the morning.
"Not such good news on the 20mph zones pilot."
NOT!
But not too late - these reports have to be approved by the committee next week
LOTS of e-mail to councillors (http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/790/council_committees_and_standing_orders/864/executive_committees/6) might make a difference.
I'm not surprised by the Police - they have never liked enforcing speed limits. BUT that shouldn't be used as a reason for not having them.
LB's objection is as would be expected from the 'old' company which looked at things in a traditional way. The 'new' company is the one that realises that (for instance) training drivers to be 'bike aware' is a good thing. After all it could be argued that bikes are a nuisance that get in the way and slow buses down.
I suggest LB needs to consider the how much buses would be slowed down over the length of a route by short periods of not being able to go above 20mph. For a 'system' that is constantly accelerating after a bus stop and decelerated for the next one, I can't see how much time can be lost. PLUS much more time must be lost stuck behind a stream of traffic.
20MPH should mean more people cycling - so fewer cars in the way. Should also mean more people willing to walk - potentially more bus passengers.
I would like to think a more enlightened (LB is pretty good) bus company would WELCOME 20mph as a sign of a move away from a car prioritised city - in which Public Transport pays a key part and would also be a beneficiary.
Think I'll ask
Ian Craig, Managing Director Lothian Buses mail@lothianbuses.co.uk
what he thinks.
Hang on, one of the 20mph 'objections/concerns' raised was The effect that the proposed 20mph speed limit will have on cyclists in terms of safety...
Eh?
Just had a quick look at report
Spokes says
"
20mph will help cut pedestrian & cycle casualty rates both in quantity and severity. This form of area wide traffic calming will be self enforcing as there are fewer exemptions, as 20mph becomes the normal speed to travel at. We particularly welcome the inclusion of Grange Road, Strathearn Road, Marchmont Rd, Kilgraston Rd, Blackford Rd corridors in the proposals as it will reduce community severance and reinforce the feeling that the whole area is 20mph. It will also reduce the amount of signage required.
"
Lothian Buses says
"
Lothian Buses have raised concerns regarding the additional streets that have been included in proposed 20mph speed limit. Their concerns are based on bus journey times, delays to services and the cost of operation. If journey times are increased due to the new 20mph speed limit, they may have to provide additional buses in order to meet the timetable schedule. Appendix 3 contains a plan indicated the bus services affected by the 20mph speed limit pilot.
With respect to the impact on bus service number 5, Lothian buses have indicated in April 2011, it was necessary to introduce additional resource to accommodate deteriorating average speeds along the route, which led to a 12% increase in operating costs. Service number 5 follows the east-west Church Hill – Strathearn Road – Grange Road route. The proposed 20mph limit along this route may result in Lothian Buses having to add additional buses to this route in order to meet timetable demands. Bus Service numbers 24 and 41 which operate along both the proposed additional east-west and north south routes cannot sustain an increase in operating costs without being pushed into deficit.
Bus Service number 38 which would be effected by the 20mph limit along West Mains Road and Esslemont Road can only be operated with financial support from the council, therefore any increase in operating cost would have to be passed to the council for an increased subsidy.
"
Spokes argument that "it will reduce community severance and reinforce the feeling that the whole area is 20mph" seems reasonable.
Lothian Buses is being reasonable too. On the face of it LB ISN'T against this proposal, just pointing out that IF journey times are increased it might cost them more and for the subsidised routes "any increase in operating cost would have to be passed to the council for an increased subsidy".
Which is reasonably in a commercial way.
The Council's response - repeated several times by comments from people supporting the scheme is -
"
There is a cogent argument for extending the coverage of the 20mph limit from the point of view of encouraging walking and cycling and improving road safety. However there is also a case for keeping a clear network busier/strategic streets on which the 30mph urban speed limit applies. Taking into account the concerns of the police and Lothian Buses, it is recommended that these main routes should not be included in the 20mph pilot speed limit.
"
SO L&B say enforcement might be difficult and LB say they might ask for more money and officials cave in and fail to back a bold policy that largely has local support.
NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
From the actual objections section and the officail responses...
Motorists pay road tax, petrol tax, car insurance
and parking permits to use roads. Cyclists and
pedestrians pay nothing by comparison.
The Council response? Noted.
They just keep getting better!
The measures are intend to increase and facilitate
cycling and encourage more journeys by foot. This
is hardly in keeping with demographics of area
where most residents are elderly and rely on public
transport. It will increase number of cyclists
misusing pavements, abusing highway code and
ignoring traffic lights.
The council’s intention to facilitate a cycle route to
Kings Buildings serves the student population and
will not serve Edinburgh residents
"Kings Buildings serves the student population and will not serve Edinburgh residents"
Hear Hear!
Students are NOT Edinburgh residents, they are space aliens who descend on their bicycles each day cycle on pavements and decimate the elderly residents of the Grange.
But they are not on their way to KB because everyone knows students don't do any work.
Bizarre. Are staff not residents either?
"Hang on, one of the 20mph 'objections/concerns' raised was The effect that the proposed 20mph speed limit will have on cyclists in terms of safety...
Eh? "
Perfectly obvious. It will increase safety for cyclists and is therefore a bad thing.
Unless the objector thinks it will make some drivers even more angry and even more likely to take their frustrations out on us as the sole perpetrators and benefactors of the limit?
The Council response? 'Noted.'
In my experience, that's shorthand for "Thank you for your valuable contribution. Even though we think it's probably rubbish, we will pretend to consider it alongside all other responses."
Remember that to 'consider' something means you've lost the e-mail or the file, but to 'actively consider' means you've realised you haven't a leg to stand on and are trying to find a copy of it.
Convener and vice-convener of committee, plus a number of committee members duly e-mailed.
May I urge others, especially if you are a resident of South Edinburgh, to do likewise.
Some cracking objections... (emphasis is mine)
EH9 2AP
"Have never witnessed driving at inappropriate speeds in area covered by the TRO. Cyclists on pavements and disregarding traffic rules poses a greater hazard.{/i]"
EH9 2JY
"[i]Objects to the addition of the main roads to the
20mph zone.
If traffic on the main roads is heavy, then your
20mph limit has no effect; if traffic is not heavy,
then all you achieve by its imposition is to slow
down traffic circulation, to no useful purpose."
EH16 5NS
"Proposals seem to be a cyclists lobby, there are
more cars, cans (sic) and lorries than cyclists using
roads and the wellbeing of these drivers should be
given consideration."
EH9 2AZ
"Object to the inclusion of Beaufort Place and
Grange Rd as these are main roads where traffic
should be kept moving." (traffic isn't moving when it's going 20mph???
And this was the 'dangerous for cyclists' objection from the same person...
"It will impede cyclists wishing to make right turns
onto side streets. Traffic will take longer to clear
before the right hand signal and manoeuvre can be
made."
EH9 1QG
"Slower traffic on roads will cause pedestrians to become complacent. Have experts been consulted
on this?"
EH9 1BN
"There are already sufficient facilities for cyclists in
this area.
The restriction will affect all road users, 24 hours a
day and this cannot be justified for the convenience
of a few (cyclists)."
But hurrah for the Duddingston Village Conservation Society!
"Support the proposal that the 20mph limit is
extended to cover the north east section of
Holyrood Park Road, and in addition Historic
Scotland should be pressed to extend the 20mph
limit currently in force in certain sections of
Holyrood Park, to cover the whole Park thus
ensuring a safe and cycle friendly road network
from Duddingston Village."
This one starts on the 20mph point, but wanders off a touch...
"We hope the 20mph limit will be observed by
cyclists, on the long downhill sections some do not
observe the current speed limit.
We hope cyclists will observe the traffic signals,
particularly at pedestrian crossings.
We hope cyclists will be required to use lights
during hours of darkness. The lack of bike lights is
a problem across Edinburgh but the routes
between Kings Buildings and George IV
Bridge/South Bridge seem to be particularly used
by lightless cyclists.
We hope cyclists using the Qbic corridor will be
encouraged to wear helmets."
I have also noted that, although I wrote during the consultation to support the 20mph zone pilot, my response is not counted. Presumably anyone who lives outside the affected postcode areas is not included? Except it seems if you live in Duddingston!
Hehehehehe!
"I am completely appalled at the way Edinburgh
Council consistently shirks from its responsibility of
protecting pedestrians from extremely dangerous,
angry, irresponsible, downright aggressive and foul
mouthed cyclists!"
Re. the terrible buses-having-to-go-slow problem it might be interesting (well, informative anyway) to find out how fast they currently go.
E.g. the 5 along Grange Road. Best way would be to buy a day ticket and sit on the bus with a GPS, several times up and down the road. What speed does it reach, and for how long?
It might be more fun to cycle behind it, assuming you can keep up and have a resaonably accurate speedo. You get to look at the picture of Maisie on the back too.
Then do some complicated sums to work out how much longer it would take if there was a 20mph limit (and the driver actually stuck to it).
Quiet time of day would mean that the bus is more likely to have a clear run, but also increases the risk that it's ahead of schedule so crawling along to lose time.
Best way would be to buy a day ticket and sit on the bus with a GPS, several times up and down the road.
I should try this sometime. I don't think the buses get to stretch their legs much except when on the West Approach Road. I remember when I worked in the middle of town a few years ago that I caught the bus in the morning, and it averaged something like 5.8mph point to point. That was so frustrating that I lasted two days before going back to my bike!
It's so rare to encounter an actual #5 on Grange Road that I've no idea how fast they manage to go. Can't imagine a reduced maximum speed would slow them enough to make a significant addition to all the stopping and starting they have to do, including trying to squeeze along the left-hand lane beside the right-turning traffic at the Marchmont Road junction then shuffleing through the tiny gap between the parked cars and oncoming traffic on the other side.
I live in the area, and have emailed the relevant councillors for the area.
Who knows what effect it may have - they have not even noted my previous support for the project - but if I get any response, I will repost here.
Very disappointing.
Best way would be to buy a day ticket and sit on the bus with a GPS, several times up and down the road.
You could also work out the timetabled average speeds by selecting a few bus stops along the route and working out the distances between them, then factoring in how long it's "meant" to take to get between them.
You might also be able to plot a nice road map with average speeds for different route sections - e.g. average speed down Princes Street 2mph but West Approach Road 30mph.
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