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South Central 20 mph

(175 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from freewhwheelin

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "
    A final vote will be taken at the Council’s Transport Committee on Tuesday 2 August. If you wish to retain 20mph on all the above roads, please email your councillors urgently! Find them at http://www.writetothem.com. Spokes hopes to have a deputation at the meeting – this will be taken more seriously if councillors have also heard from concerned constituents.In addition to the arguments about making conditions safer and more welcoming for walking and cycling, the following points are important…

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/2011/07/council-backtrack-on-20mph/

    "

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. shuggiet
    Member

    Thanks for the trigger. I've sent emails to my local councillors asking for them to support the full proposal in the transport committee.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Dear esteemed councillor,

    I write to you in your capacity as XXX on the Council's Transport, Infrastructure and Environment Committee, regarding the proposed 20mph speed limit zone in the South of Edinburgh. In particular I am concerned to have read that it is proposed that the north-south Marchmont / Kilgraston Road and the east-west Churchill / Strathearn / Grange Road routes are no longer to be included in the plans. I therefore write to show my personal support - and add to the support from other local people - for the original plans.

    I am not a car owner or driver and find walking and cycling perfectly capable of taking me anywhere in town and beyond - and usually as quick, if not quicker, than a car with a theoretical higher top speed could do the equivalent. In traffic, it is quite obvious to the cyclist that, despite their lower top speed, the average speed is in fact the same or better than a car. A lower speed limit for cars may actually benefit the throughput of traffic through the area by reducing the amount of harsh accelerate / brake / accelerate / brake style driving that causes traffic to concertina and actually decreases the average speed.

    However I do not support this issue in my capacity as a cyclist as some part of the mythical "war on the motorist", I support this issue as a resident of the area who feels that it will benefit local residents by making our roads a safer place for all users. Our roads are not necessarily a dangerous place for anyone if they are careful and follow the Highway Code. Unfortunately not everybody does and on the very rare and unfortunate occasions when accidents do occur, having a speed limit of 20mph greatly increases the chances of survival for pedestrian and cyclist (and other car drivers) alike. It is therefore very important that "corridor" routes are included in the plans - as not only do they carry more car traffic than the side streets do, they will also carry more pedestrians and cyclists for the very reason that they are direct routes between places that lots of people want to go to and from. Lastly, I do not think that Lothian and Borders Police's concerns about their ability to enforce the zones should carry too much weight in the decision making process as it only takes a minority of cars to drive at 20mph to self regulate the others behind them into compliance.

    I urge you therefore to support retaining the proposed 20mph speed limits for the two routes in question. We have other parts of Scotland and the Scottish Government observing developments with interest and should do the right thing and set a positive example that they can follow.

    Yours sincerely, humble servant, God Save the King etc.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Mark Mcinnes is on leave until the 9th, or so says his out of office. It also says his assistant will be dealing with matters, but unfortunately that generates a postmaster-return-to-sender error. I hope it's because his inbox is so full of support for the 20mph zone, but I suspect it may be not.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. wingpig
    Member

    Who's definitely in? I don't live in the zone but as going to pick one of the Newington people, as a former resident thereof.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I'm in it. You can of course write as a concerned denizen of the burgh, hoping that they will extend it to your postcode soon.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  7. wingpig
    Member

    Which cooncilpeeps are definitely reading email tomorrow?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. Dave
    Member

    "God Save the King etc."

    The QUEEN! Honestly... ;-)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    Just sent this to all councillors on TIC

    "
    We need to put pedestrians first in urban transport planning. Over the past 40 years, our towns and cities have been brutalised. Urban streets have become routes designed for one function only - to carry as much traffic as possible. The result is public spaces designed by engineers and dominated by the noise and danger of cars and lorries. A few British cities - York and Birmingham, for example - have started redesigning their streets as places for living, talking and playing, not just as traffic corridors. This should be the rule, not the exception.

    Creating places for people…will require strong and enlightened local leadership.

    "
    By (former) director of Pedestrians Association (now Living Streets)

    Still hoping for that leadership

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. shuggiet
    Member

    I've had a polite reply from Mark McInnes today saying he will raise the issue (removal of Marchmont Road etc) with his colleagues at the committee.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "I've had a polite reply from Mark McInnes today saying he will raise the issue (removal of Marchmont Road etc) with his colleagues at the committee."

    I had a good one too (in reply to above) though he didn't mention talking to his colleagues!

    "
    I think we are now doing what you suggest.
     
    After we brought in Sir Terry Farrell, his good work and guidance is followed by the Planning dept, and all street projects such as the acclaimed Grassmarket project are overseen by a design team headed by Riccardo Marini the City Design Leader to ensure these projects don't become a traffic management exercise but a 'placemaking' one.
    Our commissioning of the Gehl report emphasises this.
     
    At the same time we have to enable trading and commerce operates in the same environment and also to this end we have a Concordat with investors - they have signed up - to ensure joined up thinking.  I believe this is the first such deal by a Local Authority in the UK.
     
    Sincerely,
     
    Stuart Roy McIvor
    SNP Councillor for Inverleith

    "

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Thank you for your email.
     
    I am sure you are aware of the Scottish Government's Standards for Streets which seeks to change the way streets are designed to put the emphasis on streets for all rather than for traffic only which should improve the situation.
     
    Regards
    Joanna Mowat
     
    Councillor Joanna Mowat
    Conservative Councillor for City Centre Ward

    "

    Posted 13 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Thanks for your e-mail.  I have highlighted your views to Labour members of the Transport Committee, and I know that they are set to raise these concerns at the Committee meeting.
     
    Regards,
    Paul
     
    Cllr Paul Godzik
    Labour Councillor for Meadows/Morningside
    "

    Posted 13 years ago #
  14. wingpig
    Member

    Emailed a couple. I tried to avoid biasing it from a cyclist's POV.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Thanks for contacting me. We will certainly take your views into account
    when we have our group discussion prior to the meeting this morning. I
    appreciate you taking the trouble to e-mail.

    Robert Aldridge

    Posted 13 years ago #
  16. wingpig
    Member

    "I support the introduction 20 mph speed limited to all residential street in Edinburgh. Indeed as a member of the last Labour council we succeeded in introducing 20 mph speed limits to 50% of Edinburgh's residential streets. It was important in that process to ensure that motorists complied these speed limited, so we 'traffic calmed' most of the streets. The present proposals does not include calming measures to slow traffic but as we have been assured that most of the traffic in these streets is already travelling at 20 mph then it is safe to assume that we can introduce 20 mph and it will be complied with by the majority of motorist. Any persistent offenders can then be dealt with by the police. However on the arterial routes where traffic is already travelling well over 20 mph the police have informed the council they do not have the recourses to police the new speed limit, consequently we run the risk of motorists ignoring the new speed limits which may undermine the introduction of 20 mph in neighbouring residential areas.

    It may seem strange that the council only introduces 20 mph limits when we can be assured that the vehicles are already - or have been slowed down by traffic calming measures - travelling at that speed. However if our ultimate goal is to reduce traffic speed in all of Edinburgh residential areas then it is not reasonable to ask the police to enforce these limits given recourse required. The only way to grantee compliance unfortunately is to ensure, by whatever means motorist cannot travel more that 20 mph.
    Yours sincerely

    Ian Perry
    Labour Councillor for Southside/Newington Ward"

    Posted 13 years ago #
  17. kaputnik
    Moderator

    So.

    The speed limits are being put in on the basis of what the average drivable speed of a road is and how easy it is to enforce.

    Not on a basis of need / want / safety?

    Or perhaps I missed the point. I was just annoyed that the first thing in the response was to go on about "what we did when we were in power"

    Posted 13 years ago #
  18. mgj
    Member

    Perry talks as much rubbish now as when he taught trade union studies in the early 90s. According to his logic, we should only have a law against murder where people are not being murdered...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  19. He also supposes that 'traffic alming' actually 'calms traffic'. Sit on Mountcastle Drive North for any length of time - not only will the reaffic regularly (i.e. always) breach the 20mph limit, it will race to get through the road narrowings (with speed pillows!) before the traffic coming in the other direction...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    I got the same response from Ian perry.

    I've responded -

    "

    Thanks for your response. 

    I understand your position, but I think that as responsible road users will abide by the new rules (including Lothian Bus drivers), offenders (and that's what they would be) will be in a minority. 

    I'm sure occasional enforcement by the police will work. 

    There are already people who exceed the 30mph rules and no suggestion that 'these can't be enforced'. 

    Police already make occasional visits to school to stop parents parking on the zig-zag lines. 

    I'm sure most parents would welcome a 20mph zone as originally proposed. 

    Cheers,

    "

    Posted 13 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    Sad news -

    "
    Steve has not long returned from Committee. Sadly he was the only member of the committee to support the extension to include the additional 30mph roads within the area.

    "

    Spineless bunch

    Posted 13 years ago #
  22. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot: I presume that's Steve Burgess, the Green councillor?

    I finally received a reply this morning from Cllr Aldridge, who claimed the Liberal group meeting would take my views "into account". Clearly their balance sheet was populated more with anti-speed limit views!

    Definitely looks like "path of least resistance" politics. Gives the appearance of doing something, while in reality doing very little.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "@chdot: I presume that's Steve Burgess, the Green councillor?"

    Sad but true.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  24. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Wonder how much (if any) letters and emails of support were sent in for keeping it at 30mph. Could a FOI request be submitted for that sort of thing?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  25. Morningsider
    Member

    Kaputnik - I suspect very few letters/emails were sent in arguing for the retention of the 30mph limit. There is no need as the politicians alomost alway "self censor" in these circumstances - simply imagining what the chamber of commerce, EEN etc. would say is enough to sway their judgement.

    While I salute everyone who responded, I also know what the politicians would have been thinking.

    People in favour of 30mph: Police, Lothian Buses, Our own officials, i.e. big important people who we rely on for an easy life.

    People against: Militant cyclists and the bloke from Living Streets, i.e. nutters who can be ignored at no real political cost.

    Sad, but I also suspect true.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  26. crowriver
    Member

    There are council elections next year, and a by-election in the City Centre ward this month. I suspect most councillors are playing the game "don't frighten the horses (voters)" just now. Why make trouble for themselves and risk the ire of the Evening chip wrapper by going against the (ill considered) views of the police and Lothian Buses?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  27. amir
    Member

    Whilst it is not perfect, it isn't a disaster. The adoption of 20 mph zones in residential streets should only help the case for wider adoption later. Time will tell.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  28. kaputnik
    Moderator

    There are council elections next year

    Indeed.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  29. Dave
    Member

    Yes, that is true. Had there never been a suggestion to lower the limits on the "roads that connect places" we'd probably have been quite happy that the "already quiet" roads were being formalised at 20mph. So in that respect, while I think it's a huge disappointment, we probably shouldn't forget that it is a step forwards.

    If the 20mph on Ratcliffe Terrace goes well, it could easily be used to help justify a wider rollout, for instance.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  30. wingpig
    Member

    I pointed out that the proposed-keep-at-thirty roads-which-connect-places only do so by chance; most weren't designed that way (unlike things such as Harry Lauder or the West Approach) and exist primarily as a means to allow passage to and from the residences and businesses situated upon them.

    Posted 13 years ago #

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