Drifting off the road, while in charge of a truck, at 50mph, and hitting a stationary car that was visible for 32 seconds, without any sort of explanation for how that occurred is only 'mid-range careless' driving?
We're screwed.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Today's rubbish driving...
(11333 posts)- Started 13 years ago by Stepdoh
- Latest reply from wishicouldgofaster
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Posted 8 years ago #
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"without any sort of explanation"
I *hope* things were said in court that haven't been reported.
But...
Posted 8 years ago # -
Mentions in The Courier article that a witness seen the HGV driver on a phone.
Posted 8 years ago # -
It is crazy that dangerous driving charges are not actually brought for erm dangerous driving and certainly you can't get more dangerous than killing someone. However for dangerous driving to stick it has to be proven there was a conscious decision made to do it - such as excessive speeding or something crazy like driving the wrong way.
Even then the law is an ass as most of the time people get it reduced to careless driving regardless of what they done.
Posted 8 years ago # -
earlier BBC article says 'She told the court that Simpson was on his mobile phone and appeared dazed when he told the witness "I don't know what happened."' These might both refer to after the crash.
I often hard to understand why courts/prosecutors/police say a crash has not involved dangerous driving. But it doesn't have to involve a conscious decision by the driver - "A person drives dangerously when:
the way they drive falls far below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver; and
it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous." from Crown Prosecution ServicePosted 8 years ago # -
Just to rhomboid the parallelogram, the CPS is the English prosecution service - though the law on Dangerous Driving is UK legislation, and really up here we follow the same guidance too.
As slowcoach says, it doesn't need a conscious decision to do wrong, and conversely a conscious decision to do wrong won't necessarily mean it's dangerous. All depends on the circumstances.
What is surprising (and I need to check the actual case to be able to check properly) is that in lieu of dangerous driving he wasn't found guilty of 'causing death by careless driving', rather than just 'careless driving' (unless he did?). In Scotland you can very easily level a charge, with an alternative listed in case the higher charge is not accepted.
I guess the evidence of the witness saying they saw him on the phone depends on how credible they were, and also if anything backed that up (i.e. checking phone records and so on - back onto corroboration). But in any event, 32 seconds is a looooooong time in charge of a vehicle not to be paying attention to what's in front of you. Personally I think that qualifies as 'dangerous' (often times the fiscal service etc. don't go down the line of the higher charge simply because it's more difficult to prove, and there's a chance of an acquittal, even with a lower charge also listed).
Have had many conversations on this with my (former fiscal) wife.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Crown Office said on another case "11. In order to prove death by dangerous driving the Crown requires to prove that the driving fell far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.
12. As the driver was unconscious at the time he was not in control of the vehicle and did not have the necessary criminal intention, unless it could be proved that it was foreseeable that he would lose consciousness whilst driving that day. In the words of the statute (the Road Traffic Act 1988), regard should be had to whether he was aware or could be expected to be aware that he had an ongoing condition which rendered it unsafe to drive that day."
But the Act says "for the purposes of those subsections what would be expected of, or obvious to, a competent and careful driver in a particular case, regard shall be had not only to the circumstances of which he could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have been within the knowledge of the accused." Does the "he" in "he could be expected .." refer to "a competent and careful driver" or to "the accused"?
The CPS factsheet says "The driver's behaviour is what is important, not what the driver believes. Someone may be committing a dangerous driving offence even though they believe they are driving safely."
Are these views contradictory? Do they reflect different status in England and Scotland?Posted 8 years ago # -
@slowcoach The "he" refers to a "competent and careful" driver, and that is the standard which the accused should be expected to have abided by, and if he (the accused) did not meet that standard, he is guilty of dangerous driving.
Given the reports on this case, I can't imagine how the sheriff can conceivably have said that his driving fell far short of dangerous driving. A competent and careful driver would have been aware of the deceased's car in the layby for 32 seconds, so why did he plough into it?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Sickening crunch this afternoon at Clermiston Rd / Queensferry Rd junction, as LRT single decker driver gambled on red and misjudged his turning capabilities, and smack bang into the ped crash barrier on the other side of the road.
Swiftly followed by an emergency services vehicle driver, noting the inconvenience that he was about to experience, flipping on the blues and twos and attempt to bully his way out of the snarl up, almost taking me out in the process.
Funnily enough he'd been in no hurry to respond to any hypothetical emergency while waiting at the junction moments earlier.
Just another day for Edinburgh's ever-professional drivers
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Funnily enough he'd been in no hurry to respond to any hypothetical emergency while waiting at the junction moments earlier."
Not possible he got the call while waiting? While it's, of course, no excuse to almost take out a cyclist, I do find the statement odd. Got to get a call at some point, and at that point go from 'in no hurry to respond to a
hypotheticalnon-existent emergency' to 'in a hurry to respond to an actual emergency'.Posted 8 years ago # -
Not possible he got the call while waiting?
what, in the five seconds between the crash and his own risky manoeuvre?
nah, straightforward abuse of privilege
it was a fire engine, btw
Posted 8 years ago # -
"what, in the five seconds between the crash and his own risky manoeuvre?"
Or in the 30 seconds prior to it (I assume he wasn't responding to the bus crash but headed off somewhere else?).
"nah, straightforward abuse of privilege"
Sweeping, potentially unfair, statement based on personal prejudice and no factual knowledge of what was going on in the cab of the ambulance? (edit. fire engine, police car, etc etc)
Posted 8 years ago # -
As I walked home in the rain quite late last night after watching Batman v Superman, I noted that the majority of motorists (mostly taxis) approaching obviously red lights at not particularly high speeds chose to roll most of the way into the ASZs before stopping. In one case, however, a driver allowed their taxi to roll beyond the stop line (not the ASL) before proceeding to let the taxi roll back slightly on the hill, at which point they throttled a bit before rolling back again etc. until the light changed...
Posted 8 years ago # -
Sweeping, potentially unfair, statement based on personal prejudice
At no point did i claim otherwise. I call it as i see it.
And in this instance, my (fallible) eyes witnessed two professional drivers in quick succession attempt (and spectacularly fail to accomplish) risky manoeuvres basically because they both figured they could get away with it.
Mostly though, I wonder how the reckless bus driver is going to explain that one to his gaffer down the bus station later on
Posted 8 years ago # -
"
A bus has collided with a wall following an oil spill on Queensferry Road.
The road was closed in both directions at Clermiston Road North following the collision at 3.10pm today.
No-one was injured.
Police working hard to clear the road which has now re-opened eastbound.
More follows
"
Posted 8 years ago # -
Big thanks to the bus driver though. The ensuing traffic CHAOS meant that the A8 was virtually stationary from Haymarket all the way through to Corstorphine. As a result I had the bus lane entirely to myself (with some other cyclists) without much worry of vehicles cutting in, giving a tantalising glimpse of what a segregated cycle lane could be like.
Oh, and this meant that I got a good view of all the cars waiting in the queues. Almost all were single occupant.
Posted 8 years ago # -
LOL .. "suspected oil spill" eh. the gaffer will buy that!
Posted 8 years ago # -
Update -
"
Police have warned that traffic is still heavy on the road after the number 21 service collided with a wall after hitting a suspected oil spill, near the road’s junction with Clermiston Road North.
"
Posted 8 years ago # -
As per usual when something like this happens more and more people drive inconsiderately leading to even more chaos. Loads of folk deciding to block pedestrian crossings, bike lanes, box junctions as red lights magically became advisory.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Yep, Haymarket was mad yesterday at 6pm. I even saw a tram stuck in the traffic. Thankfully I could just whiz up Dalry Road away from it all.
However I am actually on this thread to post about the driver who went through a very red light at the Slateford Road / Robertson Avenue junction, startling the cyclist who had stopped at the same light, endangering me (I was turning right out of Robertson Avenue - the other cyclist's shout alerted me, I think, and I was able to keep well clear without issue - and even getting a honk from the driver of the car turning left...
Posted 8 years ago # -
The driver who near drove head-on into me at the King's Theatre junction this morning. I pulled away from Tavit Street as the lights turned green, moving away slightly quicker than another cyclist alongside me with a white van behind us. A couple of cyclists pulled away from Gilmore Place at the same time and made the right turn onto Leven Street safely before I was half-way over the junction. Soon after, I realised that the driver of the small green car following the cyclists wasn't going to stop despite my continued progress straight across the junction and slammed on my brakes. Luckily he finally spotted me and slammed on his brakes too and we avoided a collision, just. I raised my right arm with the usual gesture of incomprehension and gave him a hard stare before continuing around his car. He looked genuinely shocked so I hope that he learnt something... I'm not sure that there was much more I could do to be visible in that situation since I was wearing a bright green Altura Night Vision jacket, although I didn't have my front light switched on given that it was a bright day.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Almost taken out yesterday at the Drumbrae Drive junction on Clermiston Road. Driver should have clearly seen me but pulled out anyway - thank God for disc brakes.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@fimm - I think I was the startled cyclist at Slateford Road / Robertson Avenue junction!
I had stopped at the red light and the car (small black hatchback?) went whizzing past - the driver must have floored it. Good to know my shouts got your attention and had some positive effect!
I think this may count also as my first CCE spot!?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Had a day of it yesterday, with three notes of discontent to be filed with companies / the authorities.
Hire Society bus going past far too close in the wet and on the horrible surface of Queen Street (and turning left shortly after - utterly pointless).
Wiseman Dairies van sitting parked in the middle of Melville Street, but perpendicular to the spaces and facing away from me, with four way flashers on, who slowly pulls out without looking at all (and with flashers still going).
2 motorcyclists on Mountcastle Drive South, a 20 zone, doing around 60. So fast that for one of them I can't make out the numberplate at all on the camera, and on the other a couple of the figures are touch and go.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@ivangrozni Small back car sounds familiar... you were wearing something red, possibly, and I was on a Brompton wearing a pink coat and black longs.
I nearly made some remark about ***** cyclists red light jumping...
Posted 8 years ago # -
@fimm - Yep that was me! Think I was still scowling and cursing the car when you cycled past. Next time (and hopefully in better circumstances) I'll make sure to give you a wave.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Remarkable really, that this afternoon, same junction as yesterday, another LRT 21 driver decides to gamble on a red into the very same tight turn.
Not as fast as yesterday, and this time, the conditions ahead had been anticipated, so no smash, but the same risky business into a tight turn against the lights.
I have some sympathy with heavy vehicle drivers not preferring to deaccelerate to a graduated halt at the foot of a steep hill, but they aren't learning anything from yesterdays shambles, so I'll invite LRT to review their footage of drivers general conduct round this junction.
I look forward to their defensive reply not acknowledging any breach of acceptable conduct.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Couple this morning, one car door incident only avoided by my wide line and sheer panicked reaction. Perpetrator was as shocked as me I think.
Second was a MGIF plum overtaking me on blind corner on Tipperlinn road thus causing the traffic coming in the other direction to have to pull over and stop to let them past. Idiot.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Carrying on the theme of "Lothian Bus drivers, what are they thinking???"...
The #41 bus headed east along Corbiehill Rd (just West of the school) deciding to ignore both the white line and the fact I was cycling the other way, and cross the white line.
Not just cross it, but take up most of my lane... including the line I was cycling on, forcing me into the gutter.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@gibbo I had a similar incident with a bus once (East London Street rings a bell) Anyways, I just stopped and we had an impasse / mexican stand off kind of thing. I wasn't looking for him to reverse his big bus back to the space he should have waited in (tbf, that would have been pretty hazardous in itself,) but I did delay him long enough to force an apology before I manhandled my bike off the road and out of his way. I think thats called standing up to bullies, though I do think its not always advisable!
Posted 8 years ago #
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