Regardless, two wrongs don't make it right to punish pass even in a car-centric world.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Today's rubbish driving...
(11258 posts)- Started 12 years ago by Stepdoh
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Posted 8 years ago #
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Thinking about it, had the filter been done on the left hand side, would it be more "acceptable" - ignoring considerations of safety and risk of dooring... If so, why? Should he have filtered within the lane, therefore placing himself at greater risk? Or, do we argue that filtering should just not be done as it can be considered a "cheeky" move whichever side it is on? Or perhaps that filtering is only acceptable if you can make it all the way to the front - and if you don't, do you then become cheeky for wanting to merge back into the flow of traffic?
Posted 8 years ago # -
To make a meta-argument - we all have to make decisions about how we cycle all the time, and sometimes those decisions turn out not to infuriate people and sometimes they unfortunately end up in a difficult manoeuvre such as filtering back in. On the other thread there's well informed discussion about the philosophy of how the intention or the result of an act should be considered in law. Every day I filter past a long line of stationary traffic - most days I manage to get to the front or filter back in without incident - other days I have drivers aggressively closing the gap.
I think it's absurd to expect to wait in a long line of stationary traffic on a bike, and by introducing such artifacts as the infamous ASZ, we are encouraged to make our way to the front. Most people I think would agree that in this instance filtering on the right is more sensible than filtering on the left of potentially left turning cars. I really cannot see how this sort of cycling can be criticised - a perfectly reasonable decision was made to attempt to filter to the front, which was cut short by the light sequence and so filtering back in had to happen. The BMW was hardly held up at all - the retribution is a sad manifestation of how bad (and ill-informed) the perception of cyclists is by some motorists.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Midlothian taxi SV09VJZ, plate no 188. Rolled into the southbound ASL at Hanover St junction with George St when the lights were already red. I was turning right so had to position myself in front of him (a dirty look may have been cast his direction). Was mildly surprised to find him lurching further forward outside me, still under a red light. I suspected badness was afoot so I made sure I was sharply away at green, which was fortunate as he was also turning right after all that. He proceeded to not stop at zebra crossings with waiting peds all the way down George St. Pathetic scummy little man.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@algo "I think it's absurd to expect to wait in a long line of stationary traffic on a bike"
Why?
Posted 8 years ago # -
@geordiefatbloke - I am talking about the long lines of traffic that mean you waiting multiple traffic light phases, sitting in amongst the fumes. I don't filter to the front if the light is red but I know I'll get through when the light changes.
I'm afraid I do think that given an opportunity to safely progress without hindering anyone on a bike is something reasonable. Would you wait in a very long traffic jam for example if you had the chance to filter?
Sorry if that's not an adequate answer.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Traffic lights are created because of motor vehicles.
Traffic queues are (largely) created by selfish(?) single-occupancy private motor vehicles.
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that vehicles which do not create traffic queues should not have to wait in them (unless they so wish).
Posted 8 years ago # -
Why have ASL zones if cyclists should wait in traffic queues?
Posted 8 years ago # -
@algo Perfectly adequate, no need to be sorry at all, I'm just interested in your viewpoint. I sometimes filter, sometimes don't: I consider myself part of the traffic, and don't think it absurd to wait with that traffic. But as you say, if there's an opportunity to filter I would, but I think people's idea of "opportunity" will have many different interpretations on this forum :) Of course, none of which excuses aggressive driving.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@geordiefatbloke - perhaps absurd was a bit strong. I also sometimes don't filter and very much act as part of the traffic sometimes. Indeed it depends on your interpretation of "long" queue, and "opportunity" as you say - which was kind of my point about always making judgements some of which may not work out very well. I certainly don't always get it right despite my intentions not being malicious - one of these days I'm sure I'll appear on the rubbish cycling thread....
Posted 8 years ago # -
Would you wait in the check-in and bag drop queue at the airport when you're travelling hand luggage only?
Terrible analogy, but still...
My least favourite filter is between Double Hedges Road and Liberton Crossroads. Between the narrow road, the car that's always parked on the corner, and the drivers who deliberately don't leave you any room it's just a nightmare, but if you don't then you get bullied by drivers behind who want to get through on that cycle of lights regardless.
Not too much bad driving for me today, apart from when I managed to end up between 2 white van men. The one in front made it through an orange light at Summerhall, I stopped in the ASZ at the red light as it was when I got there. Got peeped at by van man behind for getting in his way, so he couldn't follow his mate through the red light. Though to his credit he did stay out of the ASZ and gave plenty of space when he did pass me...
Posted 8 years ago # -
"It seems perfectly reasonable to me that vehicles which do not create traffic queues should not have to wait in them (unless they so wish)."
If I'm going north-to-south across a light-controlled junction during the north-south green-phase on any sort of wheels it seems reasonable to expect east-west traffic thought to be restrained by an east-west red light to stay behind it. Likewise if I'm on my feet then I'd like the paltry six seconds of pedestrian green to be upheld. Obviously I'd prefer all-way ped greens every other phase, segregated lanes with ped/cycle-only green phases and so on, but for now I'll filter to the front if there's an ASL and I can get to it, I'll dismount and scuttle if I'm in such a rush as to make it worthwhile but I'll sit in a queue if I have to, moving slowly/carefully up to the front if it looks clogged enough to mean I'll be there for more than a couple of minutes.
Perhaps "should not have to wait in them for as long"?Posted 8 years ago # -
That stretch of road from Meadowbank House bus stop to Jocks lodge has a painted bike lane on the left hand side. 19/20 times, thats how I'd approach that junction.
Occasionally you do get a car or cab parked on it though. Very occasionally queuing motor vehicles occupy it, but thats rare IMO.
I have had to filter up the right a few times. Its a gamble no doubt about it. Sometimes its easy to get back in sometimes not. I'm ok if I can't as I can take the right turn if need be. its 6 and half a dozen in terms of distance home. the straight on option is just habit.
The pass on Smokey Brae is really inexcusable. Having said that, it is an easy one to prevent by taking primary if you are confident enough.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@algo Re: judgements not working out very well - a few poor choices by me in the past have much curtailed my filtering, especially on the right. Relying on cars letting me back in if the traffic starts moving is not a place I like to be. Perhaps perversely as a consequence I've found I enjoy my cycling more now I wait more often. Less stressful perhaps?
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Why have ASL zones if cyclists should wait in traffic queues?"
I'm sure someone on here can explain to me because I'm not sure why we do have ASL zones? Is it like chicken and the egg i.e. ASL are put in place *because* of filtering cyclists, giving them somewhere to wait where they are more visible?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Following yesterdays taxi shenanigans, I was almost run over at the junction of Slateford road and Hutchison Crossway.
Empty road, great visibility, I was turning right, in the middle of my lane, arm out about to execute the turning manoeuvre.
Car turning right out of the side road simply came out - he looked right and left, but I must have had the invisibility cloak on.......
I had to emergency stop and do a weird move to avoid hitting the side of his car.
Cant call it a SMIDSY moment, as the guy just never saw me.
Two days on the trot, hoping its not third time (un)lucky soon :-)
Posted 8 years ago # -
Whilst the beigey-gold Beemer estate driver just waited for me to go past on Drummond Place before emerging from London Street this morning he didn't wait to see if I was going all the way round when he left-hooked me to go up Dublin Street. Fortunately I was going up and was expecting his move, but as I was going up Dublin Street I couldn't catch him to shout at him.
Someone tried to edge past me when I was going north down the last bit of Restalrig Road, at the same speed as the vehicle in front, towards the lights, which were red. It looked like a Smart but was still too wide to have had space. They backed off after drawing alongside; I'd prefer this to have been due to their own reconsideration of their stupidity, rather than because of my glaring and shouting.
The usual post-PoP bus-close-pass-on-Marionville-Road yesterday, which I'll report when I fish the number plate out of the camera (unfortunately only switched back on to catch it on my way past it at the stop) seeing as it was a special occasion and just before the bit currently narrowed by the hoardings beside the redevelopment.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@georgdiefatbloke - ASLs are there to trap the unwary...
Magnatom has mapped them out carefully.
If, however, you prefer to attribute their existence to incompetence rather than malice, they're cycling infrastructure created by those who don't actually cycle, and someone asked them to include cycling into their road design!
Robert
Posted 8 years ago # -
Seems I've started a debate! Perhaps we should move to a new thread in the debate section?
I completely understand what people are saying about it looking like a cheeky move making the driver's reaction somewhat understandable. While cropping the video, I also thought about how I would've viewed it if a car had done the same. I didn't reach any conclusion as to why I think something I would never do in a car is perfectly fine on a bike.
I think we've all agreed the overtake was out of order (for the record, BMW wheel was ~75cm from my seat post).
Now I'm wondering what would've made the filtering ok (or more ok, depending on your viewpoint):
* Same approach but slower
* Move to left filter earlier, merging back out to pass the parked car
* Stay behind until after the bus stop, then left filter (buses and all) in the feeder lane
* Stay behindI'm also wondering, if cars had also been queuing in the right lane, would filtering up the middle be ok?
Posted 8 years ago # -
There isn't really a definitive right answer @Erob
Much of it requires the skill and experience to assess the situation ahead in a very short space of time. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't. Sometimes its poor judgement, sometimes its sheer bad luck. Whatever, it doesn't deserve to be illegally punished by a motor vehicle.
As I said, more often than not I'm in the inside painted bike lane there, and then jam my bike in from of a car thats encroached the ASL box!
I also filter up the middle if I feel thats safer. Sometimes the lights don;t change to green together, so if I am caught out, I can opt for the lane thats still red!
Posted 8 years ago # -
@roibeard Thankyou, it is all much clearer to me now :)
Posted 8 years ago # -
"they're cycling infrastructure created by those who don't actually cycle"
Not actually true in Edinburgh.
I know the arguments against them, and some installations are poor - especially the inconsistency of the lead-in lanes (lack of, too often), but I'm in favour of them.
Just wish CEC would repaint them long before they fade AND the police did some enforcement!
Posted 8 years ago # -
At least they are better than the waste of paint that encourages/mandates cyclists to ride in the gutter/worst maintained piece of roadway.
But I've come around to the idea that we need to have a mandatory test for cyclists now before they go on the road; single question - 'Have you read the HWC and do you accept that you are in charge of a vehicle?'
Posted 8 years ago # -
@mgj
Well, there is an alternative viewpoint to be found in Scots law.
But let's take your suggestion at face value. Can we therefore ask all motorists a similar question?
"Have you read (and understood) the HWC and do you accept that bicycles are to be treated as vehicles?"
Posted 8 years ago # -
Uh, we do, in the driving test, theory and practical.
But you would not get a car driver saying that large sections of the HWC don't apply to them because they don't drive a vehicle. Not sure what the rationalisation for the rules not applying to them are, probably the 'doesn't do anyone any harm' argument.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"I know the arguments against them, and some installations are poor [....] but I'm in favour of them."
Me too. In fact I would go further. The ultimate aim is segregated infrastructure on arterial routes, but we know from the Roseburn to Leith route how slow, and compromised this can be. It will be decades before any significant impact is made. So I honestly believe that a quicker way to achieve what we want would be a policy of well designed, well maintained, and well enforced cycle lanes along all arterial routes in Edinburgh. I understand the law has just changed to allow the implementation of mandatory (cars must keep out) cycle lanes without the need for a TRO. They would have to be wide and crucially continuous, no stopping just when you need them.
I know this will not suit all that we wish to encourage to cycle, and will probably outrage many, but I feel more would cycle regularly as a viable alternative, and we would reach that tipping point quicker when it is expected that people will cycle on arterial roads and the next step would be to convert the lanes into segregated infrastructure. I only put this forward as a pragmatic, quicker way to achieve our goals. It would also help the politicians to start thinking right.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Oh yeah, the driving test. That works well, right?
"you would not get a car driver saying that large sections of the HWC don't apply to them because they don't drive a vehicle."
No, instead many just don't give a stuff and ignore large swathes of it (& the genuine underlying laws) relating to parking/overtaking/speed anyway when convenient for them.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@ih Will anyone enforce this?
Posted 8 years ago # -
@dougal That is the question, as Edinburgh has a lamentable record for enforcement. But if the cycle lanes were mandatory, taking advantage of the new TROless powers, it would be easier to enforce them and might be amenable to camera enforcement at critical spots.
Posted 8 years ago # -
With the state of the EEN (the need to provoke clicks due to the fall in circulation), I cannot see the council trying to enforce anything in the run up to an election next year.
Posted 8 years ago #
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