CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Today's rubbish driving...

(11330 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by Stepdoh
  • Latest reply from fergus
  • This topic is sticky

  1. fimm
    Member

    If you're trying to promote your business, xcm, that's not the way to go about it.

    Yes, on my road bike in "time trialling around the country" mode I can sprint and keep my place in traffic if I want to (and I have a helpful hill/tailwind...). But on my Brompton, in my suit, going to work, I can't, and I don't want to get hot and sweaty.

    Yes, there are examples of poor cycling out there, but as you my have belatedly observed, this is effectively a "rant thread" about poor driving.

    Like the person who passed me today so close that I felt the wind from their passing. I've never had that happen to me before. I was deeply unimpressed.

    But yes, I don't know how many cars passed me with enough space/at an appropriate speed/etc. I just want to have a bit of a moan about the idiot, OK?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. xcm
    Member


    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. Zenfrozt
    Member

    got undertaken by a grey vw passat today on the bridges, he decided that after letting me into the main flow of traffic so I could overtake the bus that I clearly wasn't doing this fast enough so undertook me close and fast via the bus lane...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. gembo
    Member

    We do as has been pointed out have a rubbish cycling thread ( sometimes confessional, sometimes about other rubbish cycling). We also have a good driving thread.

    Neither gets as much action as the rubbish driving thread. As we notice that much more, or post about that much more.

    An outsider only googling rubbish driving might think we were a bunch of moaning cyclists, which we are not. We are actually a well balanced forum

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. Uberuce
    Member

    Honourable mention to the driver who was arrested last night for driving along the pavement at York Place.

    This post is missing one dis.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. "We are actually a well balanced forum"

    Except when we fall off. Sometimes into the canal.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Woman in a Kia toy 4x4 thing (SK59 ***) sailed straight through the red light on Broomhouse Road / Broomhouse Path crossing. I should have been on the crossing right infornt of her at that point (the light had been red for about 4 seconds when she went through) however some sixth sense had me thinking she wasn't looking, paying attention or wasn't going to stop.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. Smudge
    Member

    Good defensive riding Kappers! (Applauds)

    Had a couple of examples of complete halfwits in cars yesterday, the worst one actually a taxi ("professional" my Aunt Fanny!)

    Overall though my impression riding round town was amazement at just how many people are using bicycles round Edinburgh both for sport and transport, we are becoming a cycling city despite the efforts of the cooncil and some idiots in vehicles. Long may it continue, until the majority in the centre are on foot/bike ideally! It certainly made my journey nicer as there are now so many bikes about some areas that the drivers were having to look out for bikes continually :-)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. fimm
    Member

    Flatbed truck YN04 DUY I think pulled a close and agressive overtake on Lothian Road, stopped at the lights and then started indicating left. I'd already decided to keep well out of his way, so stopped behind it.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. barnton-to-town
    Member

    xcm

    mobile phone use (& worse) whilst driving

    persistent speeding on certain stretches of road

    stopping (every single red light) in ASLs

    "punishment passes"

    SMIDSYs

    wantonly ignoring cycle lanes

    ignorance of bus lane operation times

    amber gamblers

    By the sheer numbers of cars on the road v. bikes, by the fact that bad driving must be inherently "badder" if someone's more likely to get hurt as a result of your poor driving ... you will never see like for like instances of bad cycling/bad driving as you claimed.

    Although your post was quite good, otherwise. Apart from the nonsensical "cycle faster" bit.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. xcm
    Member

    Er, admin...feel free to move this over to the 'debate' section..!!

    Barnton to town...I've seen all of that stuff, I'm not denying for a second that it happens. I commuted in and out of town by bike almost every day for 15 years, and have been on the receiving end of it many times. 

    But I honestly do see just as much 'bad' cycling. Most of these incidents are themselves quite minor and have no immediate consequences. However in the event of a collision, while the consequences aren't as severe as the result of bad driving, there are consequences. 

    There was the guy who I hit on Princes Street some years ago who stepped out from between 2 buses...straight into a collision with a pushbike. Blame was probably apportionable 70/30, favouring me...he was an idiot, but I'd left myself nowhere to go should someone step out from that gap (which they did) so I have to accept some responsibility. Anyway an almighty head-to-head impact ensued...only my head was wearing a helmet, and his head took two hits as it also bounced off the road as he went down like a sack o' tatties! That had some pretty serious consequences for him. 

    And I myself have been 'clamped' recently in an argument with my mate Dave, a private hire taxi driver (sorry...I can't help my friends' career choices). I was trying to defend cyclists using, among other things, the 'severity of the injuries' argument (I didn't mention the above incident). It seems Dave, and a lot of other non-cycling drivers see us as merely unlicensed, untaxed and uninsured road users...read untraceable, not paying our way and not covered for any damage to their vehicles in the event of a collision which IS our fault. Like Dave found when some idiot went arse-over-tit and scraped a bar end right along the rear wing and passenger doors of his car, having mis-judged the gap. And then got up and hot-footed it. Now that wasn't cheap for Dave to fix! I can understand there being some animosity when you've had that sort of thing happen. And I had no good answer to it in said argument, other than 'Aye, but nobody died'. But then Dave pointed out that he was well over a grand out of pocket through no fault of his own...and that somebody might be dying if he ever 'bumped into' them again!! 

    And although, unlike the above incidents, most of the bad cycling has no immediate consequence, it definitely has an effect on all of us. The amount of red-light-running by cyclists, the direction/lane changes without checking and/or indicating, the apparent lack of regard for their own safety and others' right to be on the road, lack of general courteousness (like a thank you/wave when someone does let them out/in), ranting and raving/hitting the car after an incident...this all leads many car-drivers to believe ALL cyclists are idiots. I don't think your average punter distinguishes between those of us who know what we're doing and obey the rules, and those who don't. They see one cyclist going through a red light and they get angry...then they catch up with you, doing everything correctly, think "bloody cyclists, doing whatever they want" and YOU get someone else's punishment pass!! 

    So we should be giving the bad cyclists as hard a time as we do the bad drivers. If there's a general negative attitude towards us, surely these bad cyclists are the ones (at least partly) responsible for it? How can we expect drivers to give us more respect when so many of us so obviously don't ride well, safely or considerately? 

    Now I'm not suggesting that any of us on here ride in such a manner. Far from it! But when you see people riding badly, if you feel it was stupid, catch up and point out to them (in a reasonable manner) that they've just waived their right to complain about anyone's bad driving, any near misses they experience or any apparent lack of respect from other road users, as they themselves have just acted like a dick. As well as endangering ALL cyclists by noising up the drivers. And as, it seems, they all want to kill us with their cars, noising 'em up probably isn't the best way forward! Like I said in my first post, best if this advice comes from a fellow cyclist as it may be taken as constructive criticism. When it comes from a car driver it's generally not accepted so...!!

    I honestly believe that if we want to improve the standard of driving, we must also, collectively, improve the standard of riding! 

    Oh, and also...
    Bad driver of the day nomination: ME! For nearly driving into the back of a Mondeo on Drumbrae South while admiring some amazing lenticular (I think) clouds over the Pentlands. D'oh!!

    Matt...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. I assume as a driver you chase someone you see driving while on a mobile phone and tell them they're giving all drivers a bad name?

    As has been said, there is a rubbish cycling thread, and a good driving thread. As you point out, neither are as busy as this thread, but it's bad driving that day to day has the biggest impact on us.

    Yes, I'm riding to work and I see someone ride through a red or ride on the pavement - but that has no direct consequence for me (indirect, perhaps, we'll get onto that point). Someone in a car passes me too closely or left hooks me or pulls out without looking, that has a very direct and immediate affect on my potential well-being. There are obviously occasions when bad cycling or walking will have such an immediate impact (if you'll pardon the pun) but the fact your own anecdote comes from 'some years ago' suggests it's not that common.

    So should we be taking personal responsibility for the poor actions of others? There's a slight scizophrenia to your post in complaining that drivers see us as all the same; then, by suggesting that we seek to correct others, that we should all be seen as the same. It's a tough one - I've written pieces asking people to stop running red lights for that 'knock-on effect' reason; and it's one of my regular moans about critical mass in that it reinforces that impression of militant cyclists holding people up deliberately. But in what other aspects of life does this sort of proxy-contrition happen: I work for a bank, am I responsible for the actions of bankers who destroyed the world economy? I drive, am I responsible for the actions of someone who chats on their mobile while driving? I love football, am I responsible for hooligan problems? But because I choose to ride a bike I'm responsible for the actions of other negligent people who I don't know, who I may have nothing in common with other than the fact that they're also on a bike...

    And it does suggest that all cyclists have to be holier than thou before being able to complain about bad driving. I don't run reds, or ride on the pavement, but because someone else I don't know and can't see in a different part of the city is seen by a motorist I don't know doing something wrong I'm not allowed to complain about someone in a Saxo giving me a gnat's pube breadth of space while drivnig 50 in a 30 zone?

    Put it this way, I went out for a spin at lunchtime, and I saw one cyclist run a red light. It annoyed me, he was gone before I could shout (because as it happens I usually do), but it had no impact on me whatsoever; 45 minutes later I'm going up Lothian Road in the right hand lane to make a right hand turn and three drivers blindly follow another to overtake a stopped bus coming the other way coming fully into my lane to do so. Which was more dangerous to me? Which am I more likely to complain about? But because that cyclist jumped the red light, and I didn't, on the lights turning green, go in a completely different direction to that which I'd planned to go in to inform him of the error of his ways I can't say that those drivers were myopic eejits who almost ran me over?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. fimm
    Member

    fimm likes Wilmington's Cow's post.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. p.s. the answer to your mate is quite simple. The cyclist was an eejit, because people are eejits.

    The licensed and registered one is interesting (and comes round all the time). My approach is:

    Licensing
    So at what age are your kids not allowed to ride a bike until?
    What do you mean?
    Well if you're going to have a cycling licence presumably you have to pass a test?
    Yes
    So what age can you sit the test from?
    Well kids would be able to ride on the pavement
    So the most inexperienced cyclists don't have to have licences?
    Yeah, but they're on the pavement
    So presumably more experienced cyclists would be even safer on the pavement?
    Go away

    Registration
    So how's it going to be funded?
    Well road tax
    Ignoring the fact that it doesn't exist *rolls eyes*, how's that going to fund it
    Because cyclists will have to pay tax, d'uh!
    But they'd be zero-rated
    What?
    Well like electric cars and low emission vehicles, they'd be zero-rated, so really you're doubling the cost to the DVLA without any additional revenue
    Yeah, but they should be taxed as well
    So you think more motorists should pay more tax?
    Go away

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. MeepMeep
    Member

    Agree wholeheartedly with both of your posts, WC. Picking up on your point that people are eejits...

    XCM: Last time I caught up to a red light jumper and said he "shouldn't really jump reds because that's what gave cyclists a bad name", I was told outright to "f*** off". He was 50s, in a suit and I'd have expected a little more eloquence, but there you go. Like eejit drivers, eejit cyclists go on the offensive as their standard form of defence when they inherently know they are in the wrong. No amount of catching up and shaming them is going to work - how many drivers do you still see on mobile phones, driving without seatbelts, whilst driving?

    Honest people would and do stop when they're involved in an incident, cyclist or not. Last time I was the cause of an 'accident' where I clipped a wing mirror on a stationary car, I stopped to check there was no damage and apologised to the driver.

    Oh, and also...
    Bad driver of the day nomination: ME! For nearly driving into the back of a Mondeo on Drumbrae South while admiring some amazing lenticular (I think) clouds over the Pentlands. D'oh!!

    Your laissez faire, oopsy-daisy attitude to your complete lack of due care and attention whilst driving this morning embodies everything that is wrong on the roads: a lack of respect for the power wielded when in charge of a motorised vehicle (which is why licencing is enforced) which has a signficant potential to be fatal. Cyclists, in contrast, would be licenced if they were in the same category of potential to inflict damage.

    Fee fi fo fum... I smell a troll.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. Zenfrozt
    Member

    I had a horrible experience this morning as I was cycling along Broughton Road, on the stretch between Beaverhall Road and Logie Green Road. I turned out of Beaverhall Road quite safely with plenty of space either way and started heading towards the cycle path by Tescos when I hear a frantic beeping sound behind me. I glance over my shoulder and see a red sporty looking car speeding up to overtake me pretty damn close.

    The lights ahead changed to red and so she slowed and stopped in the ASL. I pulled up alongside her and shrugged questioningly at her because I wondered if something was wrong with my bike. She then wound the window down at me and shouted angrily that if she had wanted to follow a bike she'd bloody buy a bike. The lights then changed and she wheel spinned away from them.

    I carried on and signalled off onto the cycle path at which point I stopped and got off and burst into tears. I know people can be total idiots on the road but this is the first time I've ever actually been subject to verbal from someone.

    In calm hindsight, her words don't even make any sense but at the time it just really upset me.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. tammytroot
    Member

    PLEASE. do not feed the troll

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. SRD
    Moderator

    Zen frost. Really sorry to hear this upset you so. It s horrible when people are so reckless, and also personal/in your face. hope you're feeling better about it soon. don't let them get you down!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. barnton-to-town
    Member

    This evening, in traffic crawling along queensferry road, someone in his chelsea tractor suddenly slammed on his brakes when he realised he was driving through the red lights at the pedestrian crossing near blackhall library.

    He hadn't realised he was going through the red light as he was too engrossed in the tablet he had on his lap.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. rust
    Member

    I was going to do a proper reply to xcm, but got too busy with work. Good thing too, as it turns out to be blatant trolling.

    Interestingly due to work I spent a few days commuting Morningside to Broughton Street and it is amazing how little difference cycling fast makes to people's driving. It's almost as if they are annoyed that you are not sitting in traffic like they are.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. gembo
    Member

    Sorry to hear about that zenfrozt

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. Coxy
    Member

    Wow - what a ride home tonight!

    Started all smug - Corstorphine/Murrayfield/Roseburn was total gridlock, even the side streets and rat-runs. Tootled past them all feeling very pleased with myself.

    However, it all went Pete Tong once I reached town.

    I take the short-cut past St Mary's cathedral and turn left up Manor place and right into Melville Street. Now I know Manor Place ends up as one-way at the southerly end when it reaches the road works, but now drivers are treating the whole road as one-way and driving on the wrong side of the road, even round the wrong side of the traffic island. So thanks, Mr Merc driver, for driving straight at me!

    Further into town, going from Charlotte Square -> Sth Charlotte Street -> George Street. Another Merc, coming out of George Street thought my filter lane to turn right into George Street was for him to drive down. So a second Merc driving straight at me in 5 minutes! Then to cap it all off, as I turned right into George Street, the taxi behind me turned right, but undertaking me on the left to do so!

    No more car-based incidents. But later, heading east on London Road, just past Eastside Bikes, I nearly come a cropper in a huge pot-hole. I jinked past one, only to find myself committed to heading over another! Not exactly a graceful bunny-hop, more a frantic haul up on the handlebars got my front wheel over it and my rear nearly over. Will be checking my tyre and wheel out shortly!

    And no booze in the house!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. gembo
    Member

    @coxy, has been mental this week on my regular commute, Balerno to Waverley. Junctions gridlocked and then long stretches of quiet roads. I think because we can keep going it may annoy some drivers. I wouldn't class any of thie overtakes this week so far as punishment passes but have been some close ones. Also a Porsche and another unidentifiable sports car or two doing power acceleration to let me know that they can get to the next snarl up much more quickly than I can. Tempers are fraying. Several of the potholes I have been reporting to Clarence have been fixed. Am reporting one a week at the moment (only three in total since I was encouraged by this forum to start doing this again). My commute has altered so new potholes to discover.

    Despite all of this and the recent provocative posts on this string, we are all still going for it. May we never quit.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. rust
    Member

    Despite all of this and the recent provocative posts on this string, we are all still going for it

    I find the best encouragement to keep commuting by bike is to occasionally try driving in rush hour traffic. It almost makes you sympathetic to drivers frustrations.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "It almost makes you sympathetic to drivers frustrations"

    Yes, though the bigger question (for me) is how many do the same trips every day - and how long it takes them!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    Perhaps the next time CEC and LBP dish out hiviz tops they should have "it's quicker by bike" printed on the back!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. Instography
    Member

    Only once a week at the moment but it takes 30-35 minutes door to door (including picking up and dropping off a passenger and not taking the most direct route) from home in Fife to the office in Edinburgh.

    But that was an early start. On days when I've had to leave after 8am and drive, it takes an hour for the same journey.

    Most of the people crossing the bridge or coming down the M8 are doing it every day.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. Uberuce
    Member

    Merc-driving woman who I perhaps unfairly judge to be of similar ilk to her that Zenfrozt encountered.

    Morningside Road was snarled at the M&S by two buses and heavy southbound traffic, and this woman was apparently so irate at the display of filtering by the lad in front of me and then myself that she drove right into the box junction there and honked her horn as each of us as we merrily went through the gap, which was wide for us. More honking at the injustice of it all followed me all the way up to Shelter. She couldn't follow, mind.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. Darkerside
    Member

    Big orange long-wheelbase landrover pulled alongside me in walking pace traffic. Which was odd, given I was in the centre of the lane.

    Car came round the blind bend in front, and Mr Landrover just gently eased me tight against the drystone wall to get out of the way.

    Amsuingly, traffic then stopped completely for a while, so I spent a pleasant minute sat right behind him looking pointedly at the easily detachable rear windscreen wiper...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. cc
    Member

    A Lothian Handicabs van being driven recklessly fast down Macdowall Road this morning.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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