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Interesting Discussion on Fuel Economy

(27 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from splitshift

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  1. Someone at work discussing a couple of ways to improve fuel economy and getting more fuel for your pound. They both seem to make sense, anyone on here confirm?

    Don't fill your tank right the way up
    I do this (fill to the brim), but if you fill it more regularly to half full or so you're hauling around less weight, and so your fuel economy will be better.

    Fill up in the morning or when it's cold
    As the fuel warms up it expands and so you are actually getting less fuel for your money from the pump, whereas in the morning and when it's cold, for the same 10 litres or whatever, are you really getting 'more' fuel? (I'm no chemist!)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    "(I'm no chemist!)"

    It's more about physics.

    Not sure there would be too much temperature drop overnight in an underground tank - though as the fuel would be replaced by air temperature air - perhaps earlier in the day (and colder days) would make tiny difference.

    Half full tank to 'carry' probably makes more difference - but depends on percentage of weight of fuel v car.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. amir
    Member

    For the first - there is a cost associated with going to the service station to fill up. Dunno how this balances but I suspect that the fuel saving due to weight is minimal in normal cars (as opposed to F1, which are v light).

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. amir
    Member

    Three better ways to improve economy are:

    Reduce the distance you drive

    Drive economically (obvious things like avoiding unnecessary acceleration which most drivers seem to forget - mostly this coincides with safer driving)

    Drive a more economical vehicle (though it is probably better not to buy a new one just for this purpose)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Anth, since Joe and Jo Public pay for fuel by volume, one assumes that the pump is designed to measure volumetric flow rate, and dispense litres accordingly. But by measuring mass flow rate you take account of the variation of density by temperature, and that's what the pumps do. Although a unit mass of petrol will occupy a smaller volume when colder, the displayed output of the pump is normalised to something like 20degC.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. steveo
    Member

    First one is probably true, although the weight isn't really a significant factor of the cars weight it probably adds a couple of metres per litre. A full tank (60l) will weight about 35kg given my 406 weights about 1200kg the half tank is only 0.01% of the unladen weight of the car... then there is my fat arse...

    The tanks are quite deep underground the temperature differential over the course of the year will be negligible never mind over the course of a day. See ground source heat pumps for more information.

    Kinda of addresses the second point also
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_1_litre_of_petrol_weigh

    Posted 13 years ago #
  7. DaveC
    Member

    How far do they travel? Have you suggested a bike?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. Roibeard
    Member

    Yes and yes, however I've found my best fuel economy has been achieved by swapping to bicycles for town use...

    :-p

    There can be detritus at the bottom of the tank, so I think it's usually recommended that you don't run the tank very empty to avoid sucking that into the fuel filters. Perhaps less of an issue with a newer vehicle though.

    Likewise I'd doubt that fuel density changes by more than a few percent, but given the fuel companies are advertising more efficient fuels (by single digit percentages), that might be enough.

    Personally, driving a little more smoothly, has resulted in double figure improvements for me, so I suspect that any individual testimonials are more as a result of increased fuel awareness than any choice of fuel, additive or filling technique.

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. cb
    Member

    This suggests that a 100lb saving weight increases fuel efficiency by 1-2%.

    Half a tank of fuel is not going to much more than 20kg so the fuel saving will be pretty small. You'll also only get the saving for 50% of the time (comparing always filling to halfway against always filling to the top).

    Taking into account the extra trips to the petrol station then it just doesn't feel worthwhile.

    I'd be interested to see some more detailed figures though if anyone can find or provide...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. Min
    Member

    "Don't fill your tank right the way up
    I do this (fill to the brim), but if you fill it more regularly to half full or so you're hauling around less weight, and so your fuel economy will be better."

    Considering how much junk people tend to haul around with them in their boots at all times I very much doubt this makes much difference! And by this reasoning, most car journeys are made very economically by having only one person in..

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. Smudge
    Member

    The biggest improvements I've personally seen (apart from changes to vehicle) are through driver/rider training. For example I ride relatively conservatively on the motorbike (honest!) and during my adv rider training my fuel consumption (I refuse to mis-name it "economy") went from around 55mpg to 65mpg on a Honda XBR500. My journey times were unchanged and I was accelerating firmly to the appropriate speed. (most adv rider training is big on "making progress")

    It's 80+% about anticipation/observation, less braking = less need to accelerate, slightly lower cruise speeds don't hurt either :-o it's also always a giggle (if a little alarming) watching the muppets crawl all over your back in a 30mph limit only to be unable to keep up on a flowing 60mph limit... but then most of us see a similar effect in town traffic on the bicycle don't we :-/

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. steveo
    Member

    Of course there is the hedge argument, if you fill your tank and the price of petrol drops your stuck hauling round maybe a fivers worth of waste.

    Also there is cash flow, filling ones tanks ties up nearly £90 (70l tank) of cash in fuel given how little I drive thats a couple of months worth that would be better in the bank than wasting in the tank.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  13. "a giggle (if a little alarming) watching the muppets crawl all over your back in a 30mph limit only to be unable to keep up on a flowing 60mph limit"

    Have to admit to enjoying this as well (in the car). Also have to admit to accelerating a little more sharply than required in the transition between the two limits if I've had someone right in my boot through the 30 and it's clear they're in a beat-up old Fiesta or something.

    Very good point re. the statement on fuel weight meaning driving with one person therefore being the most economical way to go about things.

    @DaveC - it wasn't a discussion on commuting, just about ways to get better fuel economy. The person in question is normally on a motorbike, or parks in the outskirts and cycles the rest (lives in Dunbar).

    I do find having a sixth gear for lower revs while cruising on the motorway helps as well. Not exactly a practical solution for those with a five (or less) speed box though.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  14. Smudge
    Member

    on the filling tanks half full, not a great idea on a metal tank, as any water vapour will condense on the upper part of the tank, and eventually cause corrosion and leaks/cr*p in the fuel tank. Also as indicated above, is the saving worth twice(ish) the detours to petrol stations?
    It was pointed out a while ago on another forum I frequent that fuel outlets are given a tolerance of accuracy within which their pumps must work, large supermarket chains have allegedly been known to run theirs right at the edge (ie. minimum delivery per mesuared litre) in order to acrue savings over the large quantities of fuel they sell.
    Was noticed first by a friend who always filled his bike at a local petrol station when he hit reserve and one day was closer to a tesco/morrison/co-op/whatever and mysteriously got "more" fuel into his tank than usual, as it seemed unlikely his tank had grown he asked a mutual friend in weights and measures who made the above claim.

    Anyone on here able to verify/deny?

    Edited to add: or build one of these, in fact, build two fairings, I'll have one as well! http://ecomodder.com/blog/diy-aero-fairings-honda-125cc-motorcycle-214-mpg/

    Posted 13 years ago #
  15. steveo
    Member

    "Very good point re. the statement on fuel weight meaning driving with one person therefore being the most economical way to go about things."

    Not really adding another 4 average sized people will only add about 250kg which for a car that will comfortably take 5 people is only ~5% of the unladen weight of the vehicle. It'll cost (max) a couple of mpg but use much less than 5 cars.

    Unless that was irony i've missed in which case: hehe yeah!

    This makes an interesting point ot:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ethicalman/2009/11/why_cars_are_greener_than_buses.html

    Posted 13 years ago #
  16. Min
    Member

    It was definately irony! And that 250kg is a heck of a lot more than the weight of the fuel.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  17. alibali
    Member

    steveo, Although your arguement stands, and mervelous fuel though petrol is, I think it's a bit heavier than that.

    I think 60l was a mass of ~44kg and that 22kg is ~2% of the mass of your pug.

    Usually no need to worry about a half-full tank for corrosion reasons nowadays, most are plastic.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  18. steveo
    Member

    Doh. Had an extra zero in the unladen weight... That's what you get for using an actual envelope for calculations.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  19. Smudge
    Member

    @alibali true, but some of my vehicles are *old* lol, and the condensation problem sometimes still rears its head unless you have a diseasel with a nice water trap, damhikijkok!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  20. splitshift
    Member

    I drive a heavy for work, we are in the claws of efficient driving at the mo.Our brand new vehicles average between 7.5 and 12 mpg ( dependant on weight and route )A huge gain in mpg can be gained by just driving differently, no harsh accel, not so many gear changes, esp when slowing down, ours are nearly all semi auto boxes , but you can lock it in manual mode and overide the computer . Strangely we can regularly still get 13.5/14 mpg with an old manual, 12 speeder !Skirts and spoilers with correct air deflectors also make a big difference. all quite obvious really !
    scott

    Posted 13 years ago #
  21. alibali
    Member

    splitshift, can you beat the computer for fuel economy? I have a auto-with-manual-flappy-paddle car and have often wondered if I could save fuel that way. BTW the auto box "cheats" by freewheeling downhill..

    Posted 13 years ago #
  22. alibali
    Member

    an actual envelope for calculations

    Yup, fag packets work better but they are getting harder to find!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  23. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Driving a big lorry and cycling time trial have more in common than you might think!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  24. PS
    Member

    @splitshift What's scale of savings do lorries make from the (probably officially frowned upon) drafting that you often see them doing on motorways? Is it anywhere near the percentage watt saving claimed by pro cyclists drafting in the peloton?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  25. alibali
    Member

    damhikijkok

    Had to look it up, but now I do too!

    diseasel

    Not heard that for a while. Much heavier (~900g/l) than petrol(~740g/l), probably why you can go further on each litre?

    Driving a big lorry and cycling time trial have more in common than you might think!

    Limited speed range of power source-> lots of gears and a reluctance to shed speed once rolling!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  26. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Much heavier (~900g/l) than petrol(~740g/l), probably why you can go further on each litre?

    Although diesel has a slightly lower heat of combustion, it has a higher temperature of combustion, which requires a much greater compression ratio, and that results in a higher thermal efficiency. The lower vapour pressure also means you can drop a match into a bucket of diesel and the match will go out.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  27. splitshift
    Member

    @ps no idea if it makes that much difference, i am generally going too slow to be in the convoy ! I can see it MIGHT make sense,if our trailers are coupled too far from the cab, yes you can adjust it then it makes a huge area of turbulence and hence dirty air. I suspect that the convoy drafting thing would need trucks VERY close to one another. It works on racing cars though ! Yes the computer can be beaten, you have to know how to do it, we generally lock into gear 6 or 7 as you aproach a hazard, slowing using the exhaust and foot brake, if the hazard needs you to stop, clutch in ( yes its an auto with a clutch ! )and change into manual. If the hazard doesnt require a stop, back on the gas, or resume button on the cruise control, switch back to full auto and away you go. every time you change gear you use fuel that isnt actually "driving" the vehicle.Full autos generally have much smoother changes, but also need a hill strt assist system to stop 44 tonnes running back into a mini !Some people who have their own truck every day would notice that the leadfoots would eventually be returning better mpg than the guys who never over rev, block change etc. The running in period for one of these things can be 100 000kms! After that they "loosen up" and need less fuel, but break down more !Exhaust brakes, if used correctly, ie in the correct gear, they can maintain a vehicle speed, downhill and use no fuel at all! sounds horrible though !prob at about 2000 revs, and valves blowing away under the cab ! We have actual and average mpg displays in the cab so we can see wats going on !
    ENOUGH ! TOO BORING ! lets talk about bikes !

    Posted 13 years ago #

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