CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
A tale of two newspapers
(31 posts)-
Posted 13 years ago #
-
Scots Knight conquours cycling in England! Scotsman paper still fixated on a wee leather ball being booted round a field and its politics...
Dismal.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Some drunken bigots holding up a giant shirt to taunt some other group of drunken bigots, like they have been doing at any opportunity for the last 100 plus years. National news. To be encouraged. Apparently.
Posted 13 years ago # -
The top four teams in the premiere division are Hearts, Motherwell, Rangers and Celtic.
The first letters of these four are HMRC.
Coincidence… I think not.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'm going to go against the grain here, I think the potential demise of Rangers FC is bigger news than Chris Hoy winning the Keirin.
I don't like Rangers. Hell, I don't like Celtic. But they provide employment for thousands (genuinely, waaaaay beyond the players on the pitch), and they provide entertainment for 10s and 100s of thousands. There are an element who tinge that with the bigotry and hatred, but don't let that make you judge every single person who likes that club, or football in general, in exactly the same manner.
For many it is important. And before anyone says 'but it's only a game', I'll doubt if anyone was to tell you they'd spent thousands to align their holidays to the Tour de France and stood by the side of the road for 6 hours for a 10 second passage of the peleton you'd tell them they were mad.
Each to their own, and like it or not the effect of these two clubs on Scottish life as a whole is immense. Too important yes, and I'd rather it wasn't, but this is front page news in this country. Chris Hoy is back page news.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Well said anth
If Rangers go down the pan Celtic won't have the old firm, so they will be on a shaky peg too. Without the two the TV funding for tghe league would go and then the smaller clubs wouldn't get the money when they play the big clubs and that would potentially ruin the whole industry and as anth said that = jobsAnd fair play to them, some people have worked awfy hard to make that big jumper
That said I'd still buy the times (cos it has Angelina Jolie on the top ;)
Posted 13 years ago # -
The myth of the Old Firm being good for Scottish football has been blown apart on some blogs recently, which looked at the relative value of the extra attendance for 3 or 4 games a season compared with doing well, getting in to Europe and an extended cup run; ie much like Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc enjoyed in the 80's and 90's. When at least one OF club is in the doldrums, the others do better. The SPL is currently the least competitve league in the world, with the same top two every year bar one. The SPD that preceded it was the most competitive in Europe, at a time before wee Fergus and EBTs.
Does anyone think that Hoy is on the front of the Thunderer because he is in Red White and Blue?
Posted 13 years ago # -
Rangers have a full time staff in the order of 170 people, so really nothing more than a small business.
Just picked another small business at random, nobody batted an eyelid when 500 jobs were lost at Harte Construction in January (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-16516320), or the countless other firms that have gone to the wall in the last few months/years which have had a real effect on our economy.
Not much of a surprise really then when a lot of people have little sympathy for a very small business which has been living beyond it's means to the tune of £10M a year whilst it still pays some members of it's staff tens of thousands of £s a week!
Is it a shame that they are in financial difficulty? For their supporters yes. Is this really front page news though? Nope!
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'm going to go against the grain here, I think the potential demise of Rangers FC is bigger news than Chris Hoy winning the Keirin.
maybe so Anth,but 30% of the page?
no reason why they could have had Hoy on there tooPosted 13 years ago # -
@Anth with a different picture (i.e. one of some worried-looking Rangers fans outside Ibrox or a shame-faced Craig Whyte trying to sneak out the back door) it may just have been a story about the decline of an important (subjective!) football club. However the picture that they chose to give such space on the front page could quite literaly have been captioned "some drunken bigots holding up a giant shirt to taunt some other group of drunken bigots, like they have been doing at any opportunity for the last 100 plus years."
It epiromises the absolute worst side of the "Scottish game", the intolerance from a none-too portion of both sides "fans" for eachother, that the only thing as important as supporting your own club is hating the other guy's club, and the blind eyes that for so long have been turned to it all (particularly by the clubs themselves and their apparent governing body). With a reminder like that of this aspect of "the beautiful game", I'm sure there's other non-football followists and not just myself thinking to themselves "so what. good riddance, hope the other lot follow soon".
I'd just like to see the good news about a local lad who made good, made it to the top of the world, who is a true sportsman and ambassador for the sport, someone that sets a genuinly positive example, being given prominence over the other.
Posted 13 years ago # -
My views on association football are analogous to my views on dogs and cats. I would much prefer a reality in which they'd never been 'domesticated' and had not infiltrated and blighted so many lives under false premises, which would avoid the current situation where they're so ingrained and widespread that attempts to control their bitey tendencies and their waste products generally fail.
An argumentative but wise man once suggested to me that association football was good because it can give two people from completely different backgrounds something in common to talk about; l'esprit d'escalier subsequently suggested that it can likewise start fights between people from identical backgrounds who live next door to each other.
Posted 13 years ago # -
*sigh*
"Rangers have a full time staff in the order of 170 people, so really nothing more than a small business"
Indeed. More than likely a figure that doesn't include contracted in security staff, stewards, jersey manufacturers, club shop workers, magazine editors, writers, photographers and printers, tea ladies, fanzine producers, etc etc etc.
"... nobody batted an eyelid when 500 jobs were lost at Harte Construction in January, or the countless other firms that have gone to the wall in the last few months/years which have had a real effect on our economy."
You're suggesting that those people who think the club going to the wall has a societal impact on Scottish life don't care about workers in other small companies losing their jobs? That could be construed as quite insulting. Especially to people (yes me) who have worked for a small company in the last 12 months and did lose their jobs to redundancy.
It's not either or. It's not diminishing the loss of other jobs (which, I have to say, I think putting it into a competition on numbers does). But rather that Rangers and Celtic are (unfortunately, yes) woven into the fabric of much of Scottish life and society. This is a bad thing, but it also means the impact of one of those clubs struggling can have far-reaching consequences that go waaaaaaay beyond a simple statistical analysis of the number of jobs lost. That is why this is front page news.
"maybe so Anth,but 30% of the page?"
What's an acceptable percentage? I'll bet today's front page main story picture takes up a similar amount of space on the front page. Is that also then wrong? Is it just because it's football that it shouldn't have 30%?
"no reason why they could have had Hoy on there too"
No reason at all. Though I still think he's back page news - I doubt Hoy winning the Keirin will have a societal impact (and no, I don't think a picture of him on the front page will make people think 'hmmmm, cyclists have rights on the road too').
"It epiromises the absolute worst side of the "Scottish game", the intolerance from a none-too portion of both sides "fans" for eachother, that the only thing as important as supporting your own club is hating the other guy's club"
I agree. In which case the problem is not with the story itself appearing on the front page, and more the picture editor's choice of photo to illustrate the story.
"I'd just like to see the good news about a local lad who made good, made it to the top of the world, who is a true sportsman and ambassador for the sport, someone that sets a genuinly positive example, being given prominence over the other."
If the main news story had been of Syrian protests and deaths would we be complaining that Hoy wasn't on the front page as he's a local boy done good and is an ambassador and the Syrian news is depressing?
"My views on association football are analogous to my views on dogs and cats. I would much prefer a reality in which they'd never been 'domesticated' and had not infiltrated and blighted so many lives under false premises"
Which appears to be what this thread is about - a dislike of football. Which is fine. I don't expect everyone to love it the way I do. But as I've tried to suggest, this story is about more than just football, whereas the Hoy story is only about cycling (and the cynic would suggest the Times, with its current cyclesafe campaign, is looking for any excuse to put a cyclist on the front page).
If the front page picture had been of an obese person and the blight of inactivity on the lives of many in Scotland with a lack of health forming a pivotal role in Scotland's society not a single person here, I'll wager, would be saying 'but why isn't Chris Hoy on the front page'.
Again, I will reiterate, I don't like Rangers or Celtic, I'd rather they would both wither and die. But to simply see them only in terms of 170 jobs being lost, or it being an example of the 'depressing' side of Scotland, is missing the point that this is, and I'm aware I'm repeating myself here, a front page story because of those wider implications, whereas a sportsmen winning at his sport is a back page story because those are the sport pages.
I'll bet if Scotland's footballers were all saints and they won the world cup and they were put on the front cover of the paper that there would be a general consensus that this is 'sport' and should be on the back. Though it's not a theory that's likely to ever get tested.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'm off to take a picture of today's Scotsman and see...
Posted 13 years ago # -
The case could be made for the updates to the sinking of Rangers to mid paper news. The first day it happened, aye, front page big headline news. Now its literally old news. What the hootsman are reporting is an on going saga, shuffle it into the body of the paper where it belongs with all the other on going sagas.
Hoy should probably also be on the back page but "other" sports is such rarity I'd let it slide this once. ;)
The particular selection of the picture editor I think is what is really the crux of the issue. Its less about the on going saga of a failing business (model?) and does more to highlight, as kappers says, "he absolute worst side of the "Scottish game"
Personally, I'm not all that fussy I don't read either (any) paper and don't follow either sport.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Today's 30% is taken up with a picture of a model on a catwalk in a Pringle jumper.
Main story is 'Spectre of Scotland border controls raised by top Tory'
Posted 13 years ago # -
Not sure how they've managed to miss today's real front page headline. "Bored office worker finds unexpected Yorkie in bag and celebrates wildly for half an hour"
Posted 13 years ago # -
Rangers and Celtic are (unfortunately, yes) woven into the fabric of much of Scottish life and society. This is a bad thing
Interesting how times change. One of the reasons why the Old Firm in particular are seen as 'bad' by contemporary Scots is that they are a rather embarrassing reminder of our recent past. The heroic mythologising of industrial Scotland, the noble workers toiling in the shipyards and the mines, conveniently glosses over what the football clubs remind us about: that industrial Scotland and its working classes were riven by sectarian and ethic strife, prejudice against non-Protestants was widespread, and these tensions often spilled over into gang violence. The history sits uneasily with post-industrial, service economy centred Scotland in th C21st.
The Old Firm, and to a lesser extent, Hibs/Hearts, Dundee/Dundee United, etc. are not about sport per se, the struggles of the teams against each other embody folk traditions of sectarian based identity that are clearly still identified with by certain sections of Scottish society. It also shows that the roots of Scottish identity are quite complex and confused, and do not sit easily with stereotypical or official images of Scotland.
Rather than face the complexity of these 'inconvenient truths', the political class now seeks to outlaw the public expression of such identities instead: eg. the sectarianism legislation railroaded through parliament by the SNP recently.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'm not so sure that this sectarian divide can be put into the realms of "recent history" just yet.
I should have been indoctranated into that world, my Grandad was an Orangeman, a Mason, a Rangers man, and was also involved in both Scotish and International football. He incidentally hated Catholics! My mother left Glasgow when I was 6 months old because she didn't want me involved in that life.
That you may argue is a Scotland of the past, not of he 21st Century. It may not be prevalent in the middle class suburbs of the kind I now live in, go to any council estate in any part of the country and you will find it, and the further west the worse it gets. I have a 5 year old nephew who knows the Sash word for word, he may not know what it means yet, but rest assured he will be taught well!
I know the world of Rangers and Celtic well, and I am of no doubt that Scotland would be a better place without them both, and all they stand for!Sorry, rant over, cycling again please....
Posted 13 years ago # -
If engaging in Druidh's Col du Climpy at any time in May (if old firm in Cup Final) the bunting is out throughout West Lothian. Like being in Belfast. There is a telegraph pole on the Woolfords road painted in tricoleur. Sectarianism alive and well in Bonnie Scotland
If Rangers folded that would represent what the sociologists call a Kuhnian shift. That would be something. Half of Scotland with nothing to do on a Saturday. The week before the attendance at Ibrox when we (DUFC) beat them was only 17000. The fans were not happy bunnies. They rallied round at the weekend. There would seem to be a startled rabbit look on many coupons. Hearts as Crowriver notes are only part-time proddies. THe real bite is that you can go to Inverness or Dundee (or Edinburgh) and find Celtic and Rangers supporters clubs. They are everywhere.
Posted 13 years ago # -
crowriver and Baldcyclist - really excellent posts.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Another entertaining CCE thread!
Posted 13 years ago # -
At the risk of sending this debate into the stratosphere, I dont think that any romanticised notion of late 19th/early 20th century working class struggle excuses grown men indulging in the wife beating which happens after every old firm game.
The reason the government (and I am no SNP fan, nor am I an old firm fan) railroaded these laws through was partly because decades of asking the Glasgow clubs themselves to do something was simply stonewalled - why? Because the religious divide defines and bankrolls them.
The Nil By Mouth campaign was started after a schoolboy was killed - for wearing a celtic scarf.
Acceptable ? Of course not - this is the 21st century, when we should presumably at least try to learn from the mistakes of previous generations.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Just to throw in my tuppenceworth:
The Scotsman photo is not really about the Rangers administration situation - that news broke last week. Rather, it's a celebration of "the banter". I'm not a fan - "the banter" tends to be used as a justification for some pretty crude and cruel insults; and if you don't like it, you've no sense of humour. It is institutionalised, not least in the media.
Hoy, on the other hand, was nice fresh news yesterday. Much more worthy of celebration.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Good points about violence [all neutrals hope for 1-1 draw as result of all Old Firm matches] and so called banter which always has a dark edge.
I was taken to an old firm match one new years day many moons ago [had been at party in the house and the men were going and basically insisted I join them]. I treated it as participant observation research. Mo Johnston had just signed for Rangers as their first catholic instead of re-signing for Celtic. A man was spotted next to us and arrested, never quite sure why. No one watched the football - a truly intense experience that I have no desire ever to repeat. (score was 1-1)
Posted 13 years ago # -
Posted 13 years ago #
-
I've no interest in football but I went to a few matches as care assistant for people with disabilities in the late eighties. I was surprised to discover that the roaring sound you hear on TV is actually thousands of people swearing simultaneously. I also hadn't realised that grounds were segregated (I had a sheltered upbringing) and our group had to be escorted from the home support end at East End Park.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'm pretty sure I read a wee while back that Mo Johnston wasn't actually the first Catholic to play for Rangers; and wasn't even the first player to have played for both Old Firm clubs. But he was certainly the most high profile, and it seemed to tie in with a period of rising hatred between the sets of 'fans'.
A friend of mine was involved in the policy work on the new laws that are being brought in. Not an SNP bod, the executive gophers are pretty strictly policed never to give political opinions - basically she handled a lot of the enquiries and responses to news on the law. She even heard the 'human rights' argument (it's a human right to abuse someone because of their religious background? Really?). It all just exposed the unpleasant undercurrent between the two clubs (which spreads through a lot of Scotland - as was suggested earlier there are supporters clubs all over the place, and when I grew up in Aberdeenshire more than half the kids were Rangers fans, despite Aberdeen being a cracking side at the time under (bleurgh) Fergie).
This whole thing, the reporting of it and the 'banter' between the fans, has nothing to do with football. Nothing whatsoever. It has everything to do with intolerance and hatred and blaming the other fella.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"I'm pretty sure I read a wee while back that Mo Johnston wasn't actually the first Catholic to play for Rangers"
Thinking of this?:
And if that lightened the mood then don't bother with the comments on the YouTube page which pretty much confirms most of what has been noted in this thread...
Posted 13 years ago # -
It's pretty hard to say that 'this whole thing' has nothing to do with football when it walks hand-in-hand with football, when it forms the raison d'être of the Old Firm. But wherever you find football you find a section of fans willing to kill another group of fans. It's not just Glasgow or even Scotland. It's only three weeks since it was Egypt. But the existence of rivals willing to kill each other is too common and too confined to football to seriously claim that it has nothing whatever to do with football.
I confess, I can't get my head around fandom of any type. I used to think it was just the whole "casual" thing and the links between the NF/BNP and particular teams but the continuing connection between extreme intolerance and violence associated with a thoroughly irrational devotion to corporate bodies run by thugs and crooks makes me think that it's not too over the top to see something inherently fascistic about football.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"Rangers and Celtic are (unfortunately, yes) woven into the fabric of much of Scottish life and society."
About the only bit I really disagree with, they are woven into the fabric of West Central Scotland, with some pollution in outlying areas.
Despite being aware of the Rangers/Celtic "thing" I was still stunned when an otherwise "normal" person (a manager as it happens) had Celtic mentioned to him, which resulted in a stream of vitriol I found hard to comprehend, almost as bad was that all around seemed to think it perfectly normal :-(Fortunately I grew up in a decent area of the East Coast where I completely missed the ridiculous hatred and thuggery associated with these clubs.
I can take or leave football, but if both these clubs went under, despite the unfortunate loss of jobs, I would be pleased rather than upset.
Posted 13 years ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.
posts
