CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

RLJing and pavement cycling

(85 posts)

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  1. LaidBack
    Member

    allowing everyone to cycle on all pavements isn't a particularly good idea

    seconded....

    I witnessed mum and children on pavement cycling round the smokers outside the Earl of Marchmont bar. Pavement is wide there. Was a considered decision though I'm sure. Very much in the same way as some people have big 'safe' cars to protect them from the 'others'.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. SRD
    Moderator

    @Dave People decide to cycle on the pavement after "taking everything into consideration including your kids"

    the point is that, actually, they don't. they do not consider that for an elderly, unstable, hard of hearing person, having a bike appear in front or behind them is intimidating and scary. it is probably not scary for the pavement cyclist while they are a pedestrian, because they are not an elderly person, who if they fall and break a hip has a very high likelihood of mortality, nor a parent who knows that their toddler is entirely unpredictable and just as likely to walk into bike as to stay still.

    if they did understand and take into consideration such issues they would WALK on the pavement and CYCLE on the street and not save 30 sec on their commute by cycling on the pavement.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    "if they did understand and take into consideration such issues they would WALK on the pavement and CYCLE on the street and not save 30 sec on their commute by cycling on the pavement"

    Agreed

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    I keep forgetting to post this -

    http://www.politecycling.info/edinburgh.html

    Spokes should promote it more.

    Especially now.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. Roibeard
    Member

    <hangs head>

    Yep, I'm being suitably shamed here - I'll attempt a dismount through NCR75/Tram works to West Register Street this weekend and report back...

    Robert

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. ruggtomcat
    Member

    Through northern Europe the only city I saw a lot of pavement riding in was Berlin, and the roads there are awful. Huge wide high speed with just paint for cycle lanes. A lot of of the pavement cyclists were conservative middle aged lookin or mothers with trikes + babies rather than 20 somethin students or wide boys. In the cities like CPH and XXX there are wide areas of fully pedestrian streets where many people do cycle, but rarely at anything above walking pace. I cant recall seeing any pavement cycling anywhere there was a marked and exclusive cycle lane.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

  8. Roibeard
    Member

    Cool - we've got Dave persuaded on to the pavement, and me persuaded off it...

    ;-)

    Robert

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Barnaby Dellar (@branaby)

    3/28/12 10:24 PM
    @CyclingEdin Saw 3 cyclists jumping red lights today on my way home. One nearly hit a pedestrian. Grrr.

    "
    "

    Cycling Edinburgh (@CyclingEdin)

    3/28/12 11:58 PM
    “@branaby: @CyclingEdin Saw 3 cyclists jumping red lights today on my way home. One nearly hit a pedestrian. Grrr.” Not good - minority

    "
    "
    Sandy Sneddon (@SandySneddon)

    3/29/12 6:08 AM
    @CyclingEdin @branaby SO annoying! Incosidirate cyclists give the rest of of us a hard time. #bikepolite

    "

    "

    Cycling Edinburgh (@CyclingEdin)

    3/29/12 7:16 AM
    “@SandySneddon: @branaby SO annoying! Incosidirate cyclists give the rest of of us a hard time. #bikepolite” Aye, see - http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5698

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. Dave
    Member

    Oo-er. I was going to reply but instead I sent... a tweet (gasp!)

    Probably unwise since I don't get twitter in the office and don't spend much time worrying about cycling when I'm at home (!)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. wingpig
    Member

    Maybe you shouldn't think of it as "collective self-flagellation" when it's (also/just) simple disapproval of law-breaking.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. Dave
    Member

    No, it's not. Simple disapproval of men who rape women does not involve me proclaiming that rapists are giving me a bad name! (Other illegal acts are available).

    I feel no more responsible for the acts of people who own bikes than I do for people who 'own' a Y chromosome. Except of course, that people are constantly telling me that the acts of people with a 'Y' chromosome somehow reflect badly on me.

    Well, I'm happy for people to *personally* take on responsibility for a wide swathe of society, but don't try to drag me and everyone else who happens to be tangentially-linked-to-someone-who-did-something-you-don't-like down with you, thanks.

    :)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. Min
    Member

    It isn't always easy but there is something enormously satisfying about agreeing with someone who is having a go at cyclists and watching the self righteous indignation boiling and frothing internally as they find it has nowhere else to go. You can enjoy the pain in their eyes as they find themself forced to agree with you. YOU a cyclist. The one they were seeking to burn and humiliate. Doesn't work so well online I suppose, well not the look in the eyes anyway. The frothing and indignation is still there, you have to imagine the rest.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. wingpig
    Member

    This isn't about any other crime, just RLJing and pavement cycling. Karyotype doesn't really enter into it.

    If you want to pick something to compare cyclists-being-annoyed-by-people-who-RLJ-and-cycle-on-the-pavements-because-people-who-see-it-will-gain-an-unfavourable-impression-of-all-cyclists-and-may-unfavourably-modify-their-own-behaviour-towards-cyclists-as-a-result to, try the media demonification of people who wear hooded tops, most of whom only want to stay warm and keep the rain off.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. Uberuce
    Member

    I think there's a point there. Ever since I grew a gingery beard I've had people come up and say 'the thing I hate about people with gingery beards is the way their first Jedi apprentice always turns evil'

    That's only some people with gingery beards. I don't even train padawan, for one thing.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. Dave
    Member

    Yep, but the crucial difference (to me) is that I can wear a hooded top any time I like without having to accept "unfavourably modified behaviour" from anyone, and especially that other people who own hoodies almost universally don't give a s___ about what people who don't like what some people who wear hoodies do think about people like them who wear hoodies.

    To me the only sane way out is explicitly to refuse to take on the burden of the actions of all people in the world who've ever bought, borrowed or stolen a vehicle which happens to have two wheels and no engine.

    "So, you once saw a man on a bike break a law, did you? Well, I saw a drink driver run down four toddlers. You telling me you want me to judge you for that?" ;-)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    "simple disapproval of law-breaking"

    There are people who cycle who disapprove of people who cycle who break laws.

    There are people who cycle who disapprove of people who cycle who break laws that relate to cycling.

    There are people who cycle who disapprove of people who cycle who break laws that relate to cycling because of 'what other people might think'.

    There are people who DON'T cycle who disapprove of people who cycle who break laws that relate to cycling.

    There are people who disapprove of people who cycle who break laws.

    There are people who disapprove of people who break laws.

    Etc.

    Simple (to me) is that people who ride bikes (who also happen to be most people on this forum) shouldn't inconvenience/endanger other people especially people on bikes AND (perhaps particularly) pedestrians.

    It's easy for the police to say 'you can't do that it it's illegal'.

    It's easy for people to say there was no-one crossing on the Green Man/walking on the pavement I'l take the 'illegal risk'.

    The problem is there are people (on bikes) who don't know 'the law'/don't care.

    These people can/do endanger others - or at least 'put people in fear' - same as on the canal. Even ignoring the legality/desirability/enforceability of the "6MPH" cycling speed there are undoubtedly people who have no care for others 'in the way'. THEIR 'right' to get to work/home as fast as possible overrules everything.

    Back to roads/pavements.

    It's fine to not want to be lumped together with other people 'who happen to also ride bikes'. It's also reasonable to think that just because some people who ride bikes do things that are 'disapproved of' (legal or otherwise) - 'we' (individually and collectively) SHOULDN'T feel guilty/responsible.

    The problem is that we don't live in an entirely reasonable/rational world!

    Like it or not, some people see 'bad' cyclists and imagine that bad = all.

    Fine - 'their problem' etc.

    Less fine if some of those people have 'seen' cyclist at too close quarters doing something inconsiderate (legal or otherwise).

    Of course some pedestrians are just as unpredictable/rational as some people on bikes!

    I suppose it's a question of whether 'it doesn't matter' or 'it's too late, more people cycling means more disregard for 'laws' - like London.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. wingpig
    Member

    "...without having to accept "unfavourably modified behaviour" from anyone..."
    "...explicitly to refuse to take on the burden of the actions of all people in the world who've ever..."

    People are free to complain about whatever they like, be it being actually driven at or just having someone do one of those "You cycle? I saw a cyclist riding with one hand the other day!" things at them. Complaining about it is quite possibly classified as "not accepting" it; so is trying to deflect it by saying that you saw someone else doing something else but in a much worse way. Complaining about people doing something is not "taking on the burden" of their actions; it might even persuade people who were thinking about trying it to not do it, if they know they will be disapproved of. If you see someone using unclear phrasing which makes it look like they're collectively self-flagellating when they're only complaining, perhaps drop them a tweet to advise them.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. Dave
    Member

    @chdot - I think it is certainly a real problem (people using the actions of an individual to justify persecution of a group). You can see evidence in every arena of the out-group status of cyclists and that is something we must certainly work to end.

    However the solution in no way involves taking on responsibility for every individual, and it's frustrating when cyclists themselves contribute to the problem by giving the idea credence.

    I see literally hundreds of acts each day that should be discouraged. But I don't feel like distinguishing between the constant stream of lawbreaking motorists and stream of lawbreaking cyclists. These are effectively just the same people using a different mode of transport.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Richard Mann (@ParadiseOxford)

    3/29/12 9:52 AM
    @CyclingEdin @branaby Be extra polite - give way to someone & make them smile. Accentuate the positive.

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Pedal On Parliament (@POPScotland)

    3/29/12 9:41 AM
    Right that's the Red light jumping issue raised already! how many minutes in? #cycledebate

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Cycling Scotland (@CyclingScotland)

    3/29/12 9:42 AM
    John Lamont MSP (Con), keen cyclist, raises the issue of strict liability and calls for more respect between road users http://bit.ly/uis0VN

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "
    STV Edinburgh (@STVEdinburgh)

    3/29/12 8:28 PM
    Conservative @CameronRose tells his #SpokesHustings group: "Get this: people ask me what we're going to do about the cyclists."

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. Min
    Member

    ""Get this: people ask me what we're going to do about the cyclists.""

    Rentokill?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. Tom
    Member

    This just about covers it (NSFW):

    http://youtu.be/hgCqz3l33kU

    Posted 12 years ago #

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