http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/world-to-end-clarkson-joins-twitter-praises-cycling/012865
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
"City fathers have to choose. Cars or bicycles" Jeremy Clarkson
(33 posts)-
Posted 13 years ago #
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I liked @tweetymike's comment on this piece:
"Clarkson's rationale is spot on. I wish the UK Govt would listen to him instead of those whiney cyclists."
Posted 13 years ago # -
Any chance tweety mike is being ironic? I can't look at him or his outpourings even if only 140 chars. As I have a principle never to attend to clarkson as he thrives on the oxygen of publicity. My campaign of shunning him does not appear to be working.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Jings. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
Posted 13 years ago # -
with enemies like that, who needs friends?
Posted 13 years ago # -
Like it or not, his opinion in this piece is similar to the segregated cycling and cycle chic crowd. Whilst he is the probably not the ambassador one might choose his message is fundamentally the same, cars and cyclists don't mesh, if you want to boost cycling you need to get them
out the wayon separate infrastructure and you can cycle in "normal" clothes providing you look good, sorry cycle slowly....Posted 13 years ago # -
"The upshot is a city that works. It’s pleasing to look at. It’s astonishingly quiet. It’s safe. And no one wastes half their life looking for a parking space. I’d live there in a heartbeat"
Presumably he'd actually be in support, therefore, of removing cars to be replaced with bikes in the UK's cities? (article being put in citycycling as we 'speak')
Posted 13 years ago # -
The thing is, the bits of Copenhagen that I saw last year, there was very little segregation at all.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I've been catching up on Forbrydelsen recently. Lots of establishing shots feature streets busy with cars.
"Praises cycling" is a little misrepresentative. "Advocates leching and keeping cycles off car-roads" sounds closer.
Posted 13 years ago # -
So long as they choose bicycles.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Whereabouts in Copenhagen were you SRD? We cycled all over loads of it a couple of years back and virtually everywhere was segregated. It really was a glorious place to ride.
Posted 13 years ago # -
mainly fairly central - everytime I tried to cross a road, bikes cam flying around the corner. even in the very residential areas, my recollection is just nice wide streets with lots of bikes.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Loads of this (there's a small kerb separating)
But I guess there's also a fair amount of this - the problem is we look at these with UK eyes. Drivers stay out of those lanes, and check before crossing them - the mindset means that the white line is effectively segregation.
Posted 13 years ago # -
So when the segregationists go on about segregated facilities they're still meaning "paint" in some cases, though in their experience paint which is obeyed?
Maybe with a few kerbs here and there you can train drivers to treat paint like kerbs.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"Maybe with a few kerbs here and there you can train drivers to treat paint like kerbs."
Not sure how far your tongue was in your cheek there.
But that surely is the key.
Complete segregatation is clearly impossible. In urban areas there shouldn't be too many places where vehicles are allowed/expected to do 30mph.
Things are changing - there is a big new 20mph zone (however imperfect), the police are beginning to enforce ASLs.
The later is quite important. There is currently an education programme in place (back of buses etc.) pointing out the law, also the police are now willing to enforce something that was (presumably) previously regarded as trivial.
In future 'the council' is going to have to do (more) things that some people will not like - whether that is banning parking in some places (for instance outside people's houses) or closing streets to through traffic.
To do this it will have to take the side of the silent (perhaps) majority or show some 'leadership'.
I think with all the recent 'action' - Times campaign, PoP28 etc. - politicians may find this easier.
Posted 13 years ago # -
@chdot - Things are changing - there is a big new 20mph zone (however imperfect), the police are beginning to enforce ASLs.
Sorry to be cynical, but I think they aren't "beginning", they're just going to do it for a couple of weeks, and then move on to something "more important". They used to do the same thing with bus lanes, policing them for a few days a year, and leaving anarchy for the rest of the year.
Robert
Posted 13 years ago # -
I read the David hembrow link in here where he describes nederlands segregation in detail. Many streets dead end for cars eg around school routes so kids cycle on car free but not exactly segregated roads. I think (admittedly from a position of St Kildan style shunning?) that JC means segregated from the point of cars having roads to themselves and cyclists finding some other road that he isn't bothered about so long as he can have his car road? The majority on here would presumably be reading segregation as equal share of road use possibly as a means to encourage cycling. I have long advocated princes st fro trams and buses, queen st for other forms of motorised vehicles and George st for bikes, perhaps I am agreeing with JC in a moment of shame?
Posted 13 years ago # -
Paint can be effective - there, I've said it. The thing is, it has to be "right" paint. Mandatory cycle lanes, those indicated by an unbroken white line, cannot be entered by motor vehicles in normal circumstances (they can't extend over junctions). The creation of such lanes along with decent enforcement could work. Helping to create a Danish style regard for such infrastructure. (Do Danes get fined for driving/parking on painted cycle lanes? I'd be intrigued to know).
Mandatory cycle lanes are a nuisance for council's to create, so they generally don't bother. At present, any change to the system for creating such lanes would require action by the UK Government (stop yawning at the back).
Posted 13 years ago # -
"Sorry to be cynical,"
Probably a natural state when it comes to 'transport'.
"but I think they aren't "beginning", they're just going to do it for a couple of weeks, and then move on to something "more important"."
Probably, but the education and even 2 weeks enforcement will make a difference.
I think there has already been better 'behaviour' since CEC did some painting.
Such maintenance is obviously important.
If the police have done the enforcement once, it's easier to expect a repeat 'as required'.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'm pretty certain you do get fined for parking in the cycle lanes in Copenhagen. But it's more than that, it genuinely is a total mindset. I've used the example plenty of times, but more than once when riding in Copenhagen I'd have a car go past then indicate right for a turn ahead. Even if far enough ahead that they could make the turn without me having to slow as they crossed my path they would stop. Check it was clear, wait for me, then go.
It happened all the time, noticed it while walking as well and watching the cyclists. And they did it whether there was a kerb creating true segregation, or paint giving the pseudo-separation.
I don't think there's any one cause of this. Strict liability will play a part; as will the fact that most of the drivers will also cycle; sheer numbers of cyclists means it's prudent to look as well as more often than not there will eb a bike about; education plays its part with pro-cycling government and councils reinforcing the message.
I think when segregationists extol the virtues of segregation they do genuinely mean a separate infrastructure for bikes; but there is also a realisation that true separation like that can't be achieved on every single street, and here the segregation is in the minds of the people using the facilities.
It's difficult, without going there and actually riding on the facilities and using the streets, to get over just how 'unremarkable' it feels to cycle in Copenhagen. I wrote about it once describing Copenhagen as a ballet; Amsterdam as a rave, and I think that still holds. There's a flow to cycling in Copenhagen that makes you forget all about it. Not once, not for a fraction of a second, did I feel even uncomfortable on a bike in Copenhagen, let alone threatened. Cycling in Amsterdam, Paris and London were somewhat different (though strangely I really enjoyed riding in London).
I'm hoping to try out cycling in Madrid in June - gradually working through the European capitals... :P
Posted 13 years ago # -
Mandatory cycle lanes would have to be built well - i.e. with good surfaces and wide enough. They would also need to be swept.
Cycle lanes in the main in and around Edinburgh tend to be on the narrow side - this is a real problem when the road surface is tricky and/or you are going downhill at speed and I often cycle outside the lane. In one of the photos above, it might be a bit frustrating to be behind a heavy trike travelling say at 10 mph.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"I think there has already been better 'behaviour' since CEC did some painting."
Wife and I did some anecdotal testing on this yesterday (not just edinburgh) while out in the car - every (and I mean every) set of lights we stopped at had some numpty in the ASL, sometimes the same person at a series of lights - which indicates a behavioural or education issue.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Over more than a week, I had not seen a single car in an ASL, then last night on the way home, not only was there a BMW well into the ASL at Gilmore Place and Viewforth, but he kept rolling forward towards me.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Oh that rolling forward thing is annoying. Even more so when you're directly in front of them. I've never understood it, just how much time does starting 3 yards further forward actually save? And the majority of the time the roller seems to be oblivious when the light actually turns green and so loses the time advantage anyway.
Saw a BMW 6 Series yesterday easily going 40 in the 20 zone near my house. "He's going a bit quick," I thought, then watched as he hauled on the brakes to stop at the red light ahead, not only not managing to stop before the ASL, but going over the second stop line as well. Glad there was no-one stopped in it. But remember, it's not speed that kills...
Posted 13 years ago # -
anth: "I'm hoping to try out cycling in Madrid in June"
Nicky saw these in Madrid though she didn't try them:
Bike hire scheme in Madrid by Cycling Mollie, on Flickr...and she didn't try these either:
360 degree bicycle track in Madrid by Cycling Mollie, on Flickr
Wooden bicycle by Cycling Mollie, on FlickrPosted 13 years ago # -
I was in Madrid about a month ago for a few days, didn't see many cyclists on the road except a few older guys on road bikes.
Most of the cycling on show seemed to be younger males on fixie type bikes, weaving through people on the pavements. No one seemed to take any notice of this, including the Police who were on every street corner, so it must be fairly normal and accepted there.
Mind you, the roads didn't look particularly cycle friendly to me, so the pavement thing is probably understandable.
On roads though, I was fairly impressed with the underground motorway infrastructure, which takes you right into the city centre from a fair distance out. There were also a lot of underground car parks available, so cars weren't littering the streets and double parking etc, mind you with the amount of Police about it would be unwise to park illegally for any length of time...
Posted 13 years ago # -
Visited Madrid a few times. It has never struck me a cycling city. Fast roads radiate out from the centre. Good public transport. More a walking/metro/bus city.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Yeah, did some reading at lunchtime and it sounds like a bit of a nightmare to ride around. Pah, was hoping to have a morning to hire a bike and ride out to the Bernabeu. Might metro it instead.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Spain generally seems to be even worse for cyclists than the UK. At least there is good public transport.
http://moving-to-madrid.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/safe-cycling-in-madrid.html
Posted 13 years ago # -
I think there has already been better 'behaviour' since CEC did some painting.
Interestingly, based on my observations over the Easter weekend I would have said the opposite! In some instances it almost looked as though drivers were actively trying to prevent cyclists using the ASLs. But then it may have simply been the routes I was using. Some areas seem particularly prone: Braidburn Terr; West Savile Terr; George IV Br; Gilmore Pl; Tarvit St...
I'll have another round of observations on my way home tonight.
Incidentally, those red chippings CEC has used in place of red coating are quite hard to see. There's a long stretch on the resurfaced western end of Dalry Road, but I'll take good tarmac over red laning any day.
Posted 13 years ago #
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