CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

No Responsibilities Towards Cyclists

(35 posts)

12

  1. Min
    Member

    Just got an email at work about Cycle Safety which links to the excellent Lothian Buses Video. To my great surprise (not) only cyclists are told to watch the video. Obviously, there is no way drivers could learn anything for it is there? It is only a training video for professional - er -drivers after all. They mention potholes, should drivers not know how much of a problem they are for cyclists too?

    Cycle Safety: Attention is drawn to the following link

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    cycling through Edinburgh, both from the cyclist’s perspective and that of a bus driver. Faults do not lie solely with bus drivers; on many occasions cyclists are putting themselves into harm’s way, and they could do more to safeguard themselves on the roads. Interestingly, the problem of potholes on many (all?) of Edinburgh’s roads is raised only briefly, but is one of the commonest reasons (I think) why cyclists often veer abruptly off course and into the path of following vehicles. The video lasts for a little more than ten minutes, but that would be time well spent by all cyclists, and you may wish to share it with friends and members of your family who cycle within the city.

    I am reasonably sure the sender cycles too so really should know better. After a calming down period I replied to express my disappointment at the missed opportunity to remind motorists that they also have a responsibility as well as cyclists themselves.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Wow! That's a remarkably skewed take on that video!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. steveo
    Member

    I wonder if you colleague has a bit of brothers keeper going on. Its fine to send to other cyclists because they are a cyclist its not fine to send to drivers because they presumably know what they are doing...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Min
    Member

    I really don't know, I will be interested in the reply I get!

    Sorry about the formatting going crazy and the video trying to embed.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    "Sorry about the formatting going crazy and the video trying to embed."

    Fixed

    When adding videos only need to put in URL - doesn't need the embed html too.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. Min
    Member

    I just copied in the text, it must have had some sort of formatting already I guess.

    I need help here - this was my reply, I think I made it pretty clear that I only believe drivers should be included as well and I am not trying to make out cyclists don't need to bother.

    "I am very disappointed to see you exempting drivers from having any responsibility towards cycle safety by exhorting only cyclists to watch the very excellent training video from Lothian Buses. Lothian Buses have a great reputation amongst Edinburgh cyclists for the very reason that they are trained well and take responsibility for cyclists safety instead of putting the onus entirely on the cyclists to get out of the way. As well as cyclists, a great many drivers could learn a lot from that video as all of the issues raised -for example - by bus drivers partially overtaking and immediately turning left are also created by private car drivers too. No amount of video watching by myself or other cyclists (yourself included I believe?)is going to stop them doing that. Any promotion on cycle safety MUST include drivers too otherwise it is pointless."

    This was the reply I got, my blood is boiling right now, particularly at the bits in bold so any suggestions as to how to reply would be welcome.

    The reason why I focussed on cyclists in the accompanying text (which I did at the very particular request of a cyclist within our community) was because, in the event of a collision between a motor vehicle and a bicycle, it's always the cyclist who will come off worst. I'm very conscious of the number of people cycling to and from LF, and I thought that they'd appreciate seeing the video (in fact all other comments received so far, apart from yours, seem to bear that out). I'd noted that the video most certainly did focus on drivers responsibilities,* and it does not seem to me in any way to exempt divers from anything at all. I'm actually very surprised that you think that raising safety awareness amongst the cycling community is pointless. Incidentally I agree with your estimation of the diligence of most bus drivers, but there are always to exceptions to the rule, and it's good to see that Lothian buses have supported this initiative.

    *yeah but you have not told any drivers to watch it.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    Something like -

    "

    Thanks for replying.

    I got the impression (wrongly perhaps) that you were only suggesting that cyclists should watch video.

    I think ALL road users should - including pedestrians!

    "

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. Instography
    Member

    If he'd sent it to all road users on the basis that in a collision the cyclist will always come off worst that would have been fine. There would be shared responsibility for avoiding collisions. The intention is laudable but the way it's been done has weakened its impact because seeing it aimed at cyclists, why would a driver watch it?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. Min
    Member

    Yes, some sort of passive/aggressive approach might be best since I am NOT wrong and both the original and the reply definitely focus only on cyclists!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. wingpig
    Member

    "Despite cyclists being those most at risk of injury in any collision with ANY motor vehicle, it is the driver's responsibility to drive their vehicle responsibly. As cyclists are most at risk of injury in a collision with a motor vehicle, it can be safely assumed that they would wish to not undergo such a collision. As drivers are the ones wielding the deadlier weapon (from a partially-protected position within it), they have a responsibility to ALL OTHER ROAD USERS to mitigate the risk they and their vehicle present."

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. wingpig
    Member

    "why cyclists often veer abruptly off course and into the path of following vehicles"

    Technically, in a stream of traffic, you're always in the path of the following vehicle. It's when you have to abruptly move into the path a following vehicle has selected as a shoulder-skimming route to becoming the following vehicle of the vehicle the cyclist is following that there's a problem.

    What's a good less mathsy word for "envelope" for referring to the envelope of a vehicle performing an overtaking manoeuvre (or the envelope of a left-turning HGV and so on) to people who have forgotten their GCSE maths?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. amir
    Member

    Wiggle-room?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. wingpig
    Member

    Ideally, all point/time loci within the envelope of the overtaking vehicle would not intersect with those of the envelope of the cyclist being overtaken, including those in the half-car-width-wiggle/wobble-space either side of the narrower set comprising the cyclist's footprint at any moment. The problem is that cyclists are treated as very small stationary objects rather than moving objects which might move laterally as well as forwards. Drivers not only underestimate their vehicle's width but also the length, especially when it comes to cutting back in after barging past. Where envelopes are concerned, intersections elicit injuries.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Why space matters

    Freedom, fitness, fun. Cycling promises so much, yet each year thousands of people are put off by fear of traffic.

    "

    http://3feetplease.org.uk

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. Arellcat
    Moderator

    What's a good less mathsy word for "envelope"...?

    In railway terminology I think it's known as the 'swept path', which comprises the kinematic envelope plus the safety margin. For cyclists and motorbikes it tends to be referred to as the 'dynamic envelope'.

    Active Safety Boundary might be more appropriate and understandable.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. crowriver
    Member

    Yeah, I can forsee the legislation enshrining the safety of cyclists in law: the Active Safety Boundary Order (ASBO).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. Min
    Member

    A draft - too fighty? I can't seem to tone it down. I quoted Wingpig verbatim, thanks WP!

    "Thank you for your reply. I am sure that cyclists do appreciate seeing the video and I am not sure why you seem to think I did not since I have already described it as "very excellent". Yes the video itself does focus on drivers, a shame then that drivers in the UoE will not see it since you did not ask them to watch it.

    I did not say that raising safety awareness within the cycling community is pointless, I said that raising it *only* among cyclists without including drivers is pointless and I stick by that. Despite cyclists (and pedestrians) being those most at risk of injury in any collision with ANY motor vehicle, it is the driver's responsibility to drive their vehicle responsibly. As cyclists are most at risk of injury in a collision with a motor vehicle, it can be safely assumed that they would wish to not undergo such a collision. As drivers are the ones wielding the deadlier weapon (from a partially-protected position within it), they have a responsibility to ALL OTHER ROAD USERS to mitigate the risk they and their vehicle present. A recent study* pointed to drivers being responsible in 70% of collisions with adult cyclists - this is another reason why it is important to include drivers in any safety campaign involving cyclists.
    "

    *Although I can't seem to find it. I even remember the Daily Mail twisting it and us having a discussion about it but I can't find that either!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. amir
    Member

    "point/time loci"

    I am not sure that some motorists understand space and time - especially when space is >1d. Perhaps they need to be sent on maths courses.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. Roibeard
    Member

    @wingpig - I understand swept path (I think that's a mechanical or general engineering rather than specific railway term), but didn't realise it was an envelope on two wheels!

    "Footprint" might be an alternative, but perhaps too imprecise...

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "why cyclists often veer abruptly off course and into the path of following vehicles"

    Think it's called legitimately occupying road space.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. Min
    Member

    Lol, you are just encouraging me!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. minus six
    Member

    Min, your correspondent is dim-witted.

    Not worth the angst!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. Tom
    Member

    'Min, is this article about the same report as the one you remember?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. Min
    Member

    Tom - No I don't think so though it is still very useful for my wee one-woman campaign, thanks! I think this one had to do with actual accident statistics, the Daily Mail twist made it out to be cyclists 50% of the time (which still shows drivers to be at fault 50% of the time also) but that is only if you include children in the stats.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. gembo
    Member

    min your correspondent perhaps thought he was doing a good thing for cyclists. when you correctly pointed out the flaws in his approach he twisted your words in a fashion suggesting he was a bit miffed (also suggesting your reply was only one to point out the flaws - I wonder if that is true). Given his ( he is a he?) response I would be interested to see if when he calms down he is able to see where he went wrong.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. Min
    Member

    That is what I think too, it was not my intention to wind him up I was just trying to make a point but you never know what sort of mood people are in to begin with.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. Uberuce
    Member

    Amir: Perhaps they need to be sent on maths courses.

    If I was Emperor, people wouldn't be allowed, depending on the level of scalding misanthropy I was at on the hour of being asked, to serve in public office, vote, or be allowed out the house or on the internet until they'd passed a basic science course.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. Dave
    Member

    "why cyclists often veer abruptly off course and into the path of following vehicles"

    This whole statement is fundamentally wrong. I'm not sure quite how to articulate it, but I can easily rephrase it as follows:

    "Poor understanding and lack of awareness by drivers is why they often fail to anticipate cyclists' routine negotiation of obstacles in the road, such as parked cars and potholes. This lack of understanding may even extend to thinking that the cyclist is somehow "veering" into their "path", when in law, it is their responsibility to hold back and overtake only when safe to do so, taking into account the conditions ahead."

    You can quote me as an advanced driver and expert cyclist if you wish ;-)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. Min
    Member

    I haven't heard anything more since yesterday but I have put my point across and that is the main thing!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  30. Min
    Member

    "A recent study* pointed to drivers being responsible in 70% of collisions with adult cyclists"

    Found it!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study

    The Guardian article posted by Crowriver pointed to it.

    Posted 13 years ago #

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