CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
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It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
New poster PWNelson has said this
"My preferred cycling method is to assume I am invisible and expect no other road users to see me, and cycle accordingly."
That is an interesting concept.
I'm sure most people cycle with the assumption that they will be seen, try to be prepared for when they are not seen (or ignored) and then react with resignation or anger.
Does assuming you're invisible and riding accordingly entail hugging the curb all every opportunity because it's not safe to be anywhere near the path of cars who might not see you?
I suppose I cycle with a view to making myself visble, not through hi-vi waistcoats etc, but by taking the primary position, getting into the traffic and moving at the same pace as it as far as possible (this doesn't add to my visibility, but reduces the likelihood of seething motorists).
If the traffic conditions dictate that, then yes, I will hug that kerb. If it's a choice between hugging the kerb or getting taken out by the vehicle that really hasn't seen me, I'll stick with the kerb. I concede, it does result in some pretty passive cycling. Obviously a degree of common sense is required, if a driver actively acknowledges me by adjusting his course / speed in advance of me maneuvering I will assume they've seen me, if they have to do it because of me then it's lucky they saw me.
I think it's actually very damaging to your safety on the road to think like this.
Cyclists should understand that most accidents do *not* happen because they can't be seen, rather because they can be easily ignored. If you ride in the gutter, invisible-style, it's much more likely that you'll experience conflicting movements with drivers who either didn't look where you were riding, or drove anyway (but you have no contingency space).
Consider negotiating a roundabout - the recommended way to do this (both in the Highway Code and "common sense" or whatever you'd call it) is to follow the same path as would a car. This is because all drivers using a roundabout are looking where they'd expect cars to be, and know what the rules are if someone is coming.
To truly ride a roundabout as if you were invisible, you'd want to stop before each access road to allow cars approaching the roundabout to pull out (because they will anyway as they can't see you) and this causes two extra dangers, first that you'll be rear-ended by drivers who don't expect you to reverse the usual giveway rule, and second that drivers on the approach road *will* pull out because it looks like they can.
Ride assertive, works for me.
Another optional anecdote is, you're riding uphill towards a bus stop and know a bus is approaching from behind. Do you a) move to "left pedal on the kerb" position, or b) move out to the middle of the lane?
For the purposes of the thought experiment you can assume the bus isn't already overtaking you, i.e. moving out won't put you under the wheels.
Lots of people seem to do a) and so end up smeared along the side of buses because the driver didn't need to think about them much as they approached the stop. No malice involved, they just gave the cyclist minimal attention.
I submit myself as evidence that very few people in the lane go under the middle of a bus because the driver couldn't see them. Instead what happens is they wait behind, because they can't get past.
This also usefully illustrates the second great maxim of safe cycling, which is that if safety is an omelette, it is often made by breaking "driver happiness eggs".
Was on top a bus going down Newington/Minto early this afternoon. Fairly slow cyclist in lane (fairly well to left, but not gutter), bus stop coming up. Driver very carefully waited until almost at stop - clearly making sure no one was going to push button at last minute - before carefully overtaking cyclist. Very nicely done; cyclist then overtook much further down nr Cameron Toll where there was tailback. But it was nice to see it all well handled.
Dave, In your scenario, I think I probably do pull out more into middle of the lane, but I've never heard of anyone being smushed as you describe.
No? Try riding in Glasgow or Oxford!
Rode in Oxford for 8 years - North, Center and East. Had one bike mangled beyond repair outside the Jam Factory while parked, and had a car door opened on me on the Cowley Road in front of Tesco, but that was my only crash. Everyone I knew there of all ages cycled and I will still say i never heard of anyone being sideswiped by a bus.
In reply to your first post Dave: When traveling along non bus laned main roads on the commute I do tend to ride beside the traffic rather than in it, parked cars, bus stops allowing. I guess I'm just not quick enough and would present more of a hazard were I to join the cars.
As far as roundabouts are concerned clearly stopping mid roundabout is a no-no/ suicidal. I guess my attitude is if they are showing no signs of slowing on approach, until they do, they havent seen me, irrespective of who's in the right.
@Dave If the hill is long enough and the bus is going fast enough, and the road isn’t wide enough to allow me to be safely overtaken I'll pull in, stop and let it pass, and then follow it on up. If it's not far to the stop and the bus isn't really shifting I'll plod on and possibly hold the bus up for a wee while, until the stop and then I can pull away. Because I am "potentially invisible" I will pay close attention to make sure if I am holding up the bus, that he has seen me and is driving accordingly, not about to run over the top of me.
@Chdot "I'm sure most people cycle with the assumption that they will be seen, try to be prepared for when they are not seen (or ignored) and then react with resignation or anger. "
Now that I would mostly agree with, I ride hoping I will be seen, assuming that I will be seen unless conditions indicate there is a risk I may not (poor viz through rain/fog, low sun etc) BUT I assume other road users (of all types) may do something criminally stupid at any moment. Yes I'm human, I get angry/scared/resigned or whatever, some days sooner than others, but you have to remember *most* people don't mean harm, they're just not thinking, or in many cases not well taught.
Years ago (we wont say how many! :-o ) a motorcycle instructor gave me a couple of fabulous bits of advice;
Firstly, ride as though everyone else on the road is waiting for the opportunity to kill you, really, they want to kill you but it has to look like an accident so look out for them...
Sounds extreme but it kept me alive through over 100,000 miles of city despatching (M/Cycle) and if you treat them that way then little comes as a surprise. (Oh and it applies to pedestrians/bikes as well).
Secondly, you reap what you sow, DON'T ride in the gutter and let other vehicles push you around, they can't guess what you're going to do next and the bullies will endanger you, ride positively, be decisive, but be courteous, if you can let someone out, do, if you are holding someone up, let them through, but be positive and be clear.
and he was right there too, assertive is not the same as aggressive.
On the days when I manage to put his advice into practice, things generally go better, but needlesly close overtakes still annoy me, if a bus can pass me safely what excuse does a car/cab/van have?
Oh and PWNelson, you're right about the weather, it was lovely and warm today :)
Please don't cycle like that. The danger is that you create a false expectation in the mind of drivers, putting the rest of us at risk.
If you really can't cycle in a more assertive manner, then you shouldn't be on the roads.
"If you really can't cycle in a more assertive manner, then you shouldn't be on the roads." This strikes me as rather harsh and unfair. If a cyclist is obeying the rules, and doing what seems safe to him/her then I don't see what right we have to criticize. Perhaps you could encourage the rider to take a cycle training course, but this sort of condemnation is surely unnecessary and hurtful.
I am sure my cycling has benefited from having taken a 'defensive driving' course in secondary school. Same rough principles as Smudge advocates above - ride positively, be decisive, and be courteous.
everyone on the road (bikes, mass weapons of destruction, bogeys etc) should ride as if given the right conditions the other users are capable of anything (John Huston in Chinatown). When passing a parked car assume the driver may fling the door open without looking etc. When tooted at invite the driver to suggest where they wanted you to go (politely) etc 995 of LRT drivers are now bike aware, still leaves the random 1% and of course First Bus. No idea what might be going on in other cyclists' minds. Keep alert.
Message from Manchester.
My son is visiting for the first time. He says it's nice to cycle, but - "no-one indicates".
I often indicate
The reason for the bus example was that very often when I get the bus home, at the junction between Leith St and Waterloo Place there will be a cyclist who avoids being smeared by the bus as it takes the corners. Once I swear there was a girl palming off the side of the bus with her hand, the driver was completely unaware (in fact, he'd waited patiently behind her up the top bit of Leith St so no question he felt he was driving carefully).
The problem there is that cyclists seem to feel obliged to take the "long way around" while the traffic just drives straight across - often they compound it by waiting on the left (railings) for the left filter onto North Bridge, which is the most dangerous thing to do in all of cycling.
When I ride this junction I just make sure to start in front of people's numberplates, and ride through to the next stop line without leaving any room for people to get past (and I wait in such a way that they can't turn left across me at the filter light).
However implicit in this piece of riding is an understanding that everybody can see you. The "invisible gutter style" is what makes people ride away from traffic, so it's quite ironic that it can increase your risk of being taken out.
I feel I should point out, I don’t spend my time cowering in the gutter, jumping onto the pavement every time a car passes.
I agree with your "in front of the number plate" positioning Dave, where they have no choice but to see you. What I tend to see from cyclists sometimes is the attitude that because they are in the right it's the drivers problem if they aren't paying attention. Clearly on impact this problem location changes. Regularly I watch cyclists on the left look behind, signal right and then pull out, without a second look, the assumption being the driver behind has seen them. That is when my "invisible" attitude kicks in. Until there is some recognition from the driver, I'll assume they have not seen me.
Maybe that's just common sense and warrants a "well... duh"
I think maybe we are just disagreeing over nomeclature, then, to me "invisible" cycling is the way that people go around parked cars without either indicating *or* looking, presumably because if you believe drivers can't see you, there is indeed no point trying to interact with them.
(It is at least consistent, although wrong)
Something for the lunch hour (9 mins)
These are the bikes that became the first Mountain Bikes!
@Dave Oh, I see and understand your initial comment of riding like that being dangerous. No, not that kind of invisible.
I cycle by the highway code (most of the time), but until I see they have noticed me (slowing up, flashing of lights, changing course etc.)I just assume that the other traffic on the road hasn't noticed me, rather than think “Well I’ve done my bit, I assume they will do theirs”
I don't think "I cycle as if I was invisible" should be taken to mean "I cycle full of fear, hard to the left and trying to stay out of people's way." I would assume it means "I cycle with the assumption that people haven't seen me." When I was learning to drive, my mum told me to treat every other driver as if they were a complete moron. It's the same thing. Cycle assertively and in accordance with the Highway Code, make yourself visible, claim your space - but never ever assume that everyone else will always do everything right.
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