CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Stuff

What should I do?

(40 posts)
  • Started 12 years ago by Greenroofer
  • Latest reply from Instography
  • poll: What would you do?
    Keep the bike and get a dynamo hub : (5 votes)
    42 %
    Get a shiny new bike to replace it : (1 votes)
    8 %
    Keep it and use your C2W money to buy a Brompton : (6 votes)
    50 %

  1. Instography
    Member

    Sure. I'm not saying it's the least fair thing in the world or a cause of widespread misery but it's an obvious, easily anticipated element of unfairness that stares straight out of the scheme as something that could have been avoided. The whole system of salary sacrifices accrues significant sums of money to higher rate tax payers, subsidised by basic rate taxpayers. The C2W subsidy is miniscule in the scheme of things but even so for a £1000 bike, the company director pays £600 and the office administrator pays £750.

    But the C2W scheme is small beer even in terms of salary sacrifices. Child care vouchers are much worse - a 40% discount on £243 of child care every month but only 25% if you're a basic rate tax payer. So, for the same childcare place a company director pays nearly £500 a year less than a school cleaner.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. Dave
    Member

    @insto - it's been steadily eroded from that high ideal unfortunately. For instance, as of Jan this year, you have to add VAT at 20% to your salary sacrifice 'payments'.

    The face cost of the £1000 voucher is therefore £680 (1)

    However, you also need to cough up at the end for the "fair market value" of the bike. There's a table for this - paying down a £1000 voucher over a year leaves you with a £250 liability at the end (2)

    So, we're up to £930 for a £1000 bike already.

    But wait - because CycleScheme take a 10% cut, any LBS which is not certifiably insane would be happy to give you the bike for £900 cash instead of £900 in fiddly paperwork.

    So you've actually paid £930 for a £900 bike (although that means you've had an interest-free loan for a £30 arrangement fee, good luck finding that on the high street)

    There are various dodges like extending the loan period until the bike has no intrinsic value, but that does mean technically the bike is someone else's property for half a decade (if they go bust, your bike becomes an asset of the administrators, and you probably won't be able to move jobs without settling up).

    I'm not down on C2W by any means, but there's no way that it gives "half price bikes" in a million years - even for higher rate payers.

    (There are issues with longer repayment periods in that if you leave half-way through, you then have to pay the balance on the bike after tax, but it still isn't yours and you'll have to find the 25% voucher cost to take possession, so it will be much more expensive than just buying the bike!)

    The whole thing is a bit daft. Given what it's become, it would have been easier for the government to underwrite interest-free loans on commuter bikes or something.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. wingpig
    Member

    "...it would have been easier for the government to underwrite interest-free loans on commuter bikes or something."

    I don't know if it was government-subsidised or not but interest-free bicycle-cost loans is exactly what my current employer used to offer before C2W barged in. It simply consisted of an interest-free loan for that bike to be repaid through payroll deduction over the course of the year but had the advantage of being able to be applied to any bicycle shop prepared to issue a paper quote.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. Instography
    Member

    It was late last year, admittedly, but I walked into Evans with a £1000 voucher and came out with a £1050 bike and a Tubus logo rack. I'll pay £600 for the voucher (if they ever take any money off me but that's another story) so £1,145 of stuff for £600. Maybe the schemes work differently and my employer is paying the Cyclescheme cut (or Evans are calculating that the volume of sales will more than make up for it).

    The residual value after a year only matters if you want to do another one. Otherwise, let it run for 3-4 years and the value is negligible.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. wingpig
    Member

    What's the wording on Cyclescheme regarding maintenance of THEIR bike, particularly the replacement of consumables like chains and cables and cassettes? Do you have to keep the original bits in case the bike has to be surrendered?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "
    However, you also need to cough up at the end for the "fair market value" of the bike. There's a table for this - paying down a £1000 voucher over a year leaves you with a £250 liability at the end (2)

    "

    Not necessarily, you can 'hire' the bike for anything up to 3 years, so after a year when they ask you if you would like to take possession of the bike. You say "No thank you, I would like to 'hire' the bike from you for another 2 years please". Pay the minimal sum to extend the hire period, and after 3 years when the bike is worth nothing, you either pay that or give it back to them.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. Uberuce
    Member

    If I was the Illuminati I'd use my ebon influence to instigate a rental scheme where the tax deduction paid for monthly use of a commuter bike.

    I reckon the flaw with C2W is that it preaches to the converted. My sample size here is very small: a few colleagues, family members and the fella who runs the shop across the road from my flat, but all of them choked as I mentioned the minimum cost of a commuter worth riding is around £400 and geared bikes that are fun to ride don't start to come off the peg until twice that.

    I can't see any of them commiting to that cost, even delayed and at a discount, when they're worried that the'll last a week then find out that cycling isn't for them.

    Getting a month's riding in exchange the effort of filling out a form for your work's accountant looks like a much smaller hurdle to clear.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. crowriver
    Member

    So you've actually paid £930 for a £900 bike (although that means you've had an interest-free loan for a £30 arrangement fee, good luck finding that on the high street)

    Not really. Simply apply for a new credit card: quite a few are offering interest free balance transfers for up to 18 months (plus transaction fee, usually 3 to 3.5%). Buy a new bike, accessories, etc. worth £900 on your old credit card. Simply transfer the balance to the new card, and a fee of £27-£31.50 will be added to your repayment balance. Repay the balance by standing order at £51.50 per month.

    Okay, no tax break. But the bike is yours, and you can do whatever the heck you want with it.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. Dave
    Member

    @baldcyclist - the cost of extending the hire for SWMBO was still significant (it would be £50 even if you extended the hire right out to half a decade). But yeah, it obviously can be worked around if you don't mind riding a bike owned by someone else all that time, for a small saving.

    @insto - put yourself in the shopkeeper's shoes... whatever they sell you, they're only getting 90% of the label price. If I came into your shop and offered you either a voucher worth (1,145*0.9)=£1030 or said "here's £1030 cash", would you refuse the cash?

    (at this point, someone from the Bike Chain might be able to comment)

    Of course that doesn't apply to all C2W by any means, for instance Edinburgh Bike Co-op do their own in-house, so they don't lose anything to a middleman. Interestingly though, I believe they do support Cyclescheme vouchers, so anyone who fancies saving 10% off the cost of a bike should bear that in mind.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. Instography
    Member

    Ah, so the problem's with Cyclescheme. Presumably Evans is big enough to also do its own admin. It sounds like Cyclescheme has built a little money spinner on top of the basic C2W 'scam' with its extension fee and creaming 10% off the retailer.

    Personally, I don't need to pay anything more. My contract is to hire the bike for 5 years so after a year I'll have paid all I'm ever going to pay (and £600 for £1145 of stuff works out at a half price bike - OK, 52.4%). Sure, it's technically someone else's but it's in my garage and if my company goes bust they can come and get it. If that happens I'll have a lot more to worry about than my bike.

    Posted 12 years ago #

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