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Indicating / signalling

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  1. SRD
    Moderator

    Does anyone else indicate that they are slowing down? And if so, how?

    I turn off the Dalkeith Road not at an intersection i.e. I lift bike up onto footpath, and walk it across to a pedestrian entrygate. Since it is a busy bus lane etc, I tend to signal that I am slowing down. I don't signal 'turning left' because I assume they would assume that I was turning at next intersection, which is only a few yards on.

    I signal as I have always seen car drivers in Africa signal slowing down (usually when their brake lights are bust or they are being pushed along a road). this involves having left arm at about 7 o'clock and flapping it slowly back and forth. (Do you think anyone here has any idea that that is what I am signalling?)

    I googled and found two other fairly different hand signals for slowing down: one here and another here

    Any ideas about what is most likely to be correctly interpreted here. I have never seen anyone using any of these signals in the UK!

    Posted 14 years ago #

  2. spytfyre
    Member

    I believed the old hand signal for driving was waving arm up and down but the second link looks more likely to get understanding as the first link looks too close to turning left

    Posted 14 years ago #

  3. Gresham Flyer
    Member

    What you describe was the approved method I was taught during my cycling proficiency test (circa 1978), although I think it was the right arm. I havent used it for years.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  4. PS
    Member

    Yes - I'm pretty sure it was the right arm, which I guess is a result of it being inherited from car drivers who have (had) to use the right arm to make the signal, what with British cars being right hand drive and all that.

    I have actually witnessed a driver signalling in this way - years ago, being driven to school by the father of a schoolmate. I distinctly remember him winding down the window to make the signal. I can only assume his brake lights were playing up...

    I've never done it though, either in a car or on the bike. I think I would just signal left and slow down gradually.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  5. Dave
    Member

    I wouldn't know what to make of it myself, although if somebody was slowing down I'd just go around them (?).

    When I want to stop, I just signal left, seems to work OK. It's not clear what would happen if somebody thought you were slowing down for a junction but actually you were slowing down a little more to stop before it, as everybody slows down different amounts to take a corner anyway.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  6. Smudge
    Member

    Easy one! Right arm palm facing downwards outstretched to the side and raised and lowered indicates "I am slowing down or stopping".
    If there is a risk of confusion you could however indicate left provided there was no junction/turning to the left which would allow the signal to be misinterpreted.

    I was asked that on a couple of tests for some reason!

    Posted 14 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "Easy one! Right arm palm facing downwards outstretched to the side and raised and lowered indicates "I am slowing down or stopping"."

    yeah but how many people know that these days?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  8. cb
    Member

    How to you indicate left and indicate that you are slowing down at the same time? (ride fixed?)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  9. SRD
    Moderator

    cb: Great image. I see cyclist who looks like he's trying to take flight :)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  10. Dave
    Member

    The problem with the actual slowing down signal is that, apart from a few eccentrics and the odd IAM driver, people would expect you to turn right and many would hold back to allow you to move across (becoming confused and upset when you kept slowing down and eventually stopped).

    If in doubt, what would you do in a car? is a good maxim, I think it's generally understood that a left signal to pull into the left is acceptable?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  11. Kim
    Member

    The correct signals are given in the Highway Code (which is there for all road users) here

    Posted 14 years ago #

  12. Dave
    Member

    I vote we should have a contest, randomise some drivers who will turn left, some who will just pull over on the left, some who will slow down, get them to give the correct hand gesture and see how many other drivers/cyclists/pedestrians crossing side roads correctly interpret the signals! :-)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  13. Smudge
    Member

    As Kim says, it's in the highway code, the reason all road users should know them is simple, if a car/van/truck/bus driver has their indicators fail for any reason they can still indicate their intentions, other users need to know them so that they understand the signals. Some classic vehicles have no indicators, horses and bicycles are commonly not fitted with indicators, therefore a standard set of signals are still included in the code so we can understand each other and share the roads safely.

    It is not just for badness that some random highway code questions are included in the car/bike/truck/bus test... it's because all road users should be making some sort of effort to learn the rules of the roads we use, and anyway, there is what, one A4 sheet worth of hand signals to remember, it is simply not that difficult.

    Just because many people haven't bothered to learn the rules doesn't mean the rules are wrong ;-)

    SRD is quite correct to seek to identify the right way to signal imho, and then use it as when appropriate, that way if someone does something stupid thereafter they cannot argue that no signal or an unclear signal was made and therefore it was the cyclists fault...

    If we don't play by the rules we can hardly complain when other road users don't?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  14. Dave
    Member

    If more than 50% of people would interpret the correct signal as the wrong one, IMO it is an unclear signal in reality (although I completely agree that in an ideal world, everybody would have the Highway Code at their fingertips).

    i.e. it's all very well saying you gave the correct signal but small consolation if you're explaining yourself from under the wheels of a bus!

    With the large variation in how cyclists' arms signal right while bouncing over our potholed terrain, I'd be quite nervous about overtaking somebody who I thought was slowing down by waving their arm to the right, in case they were planning to move to the right instead.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  15. spytfyre
    Member

    speaking of signalling, since I gave up my MTB for a more hybrid thing I find doing 16mph down cobbled streets makes it difficult to signal at all...

    Posted 14 years ago #

  16. Dave
    Member

    To be honest I only generally indicate if I want to move right across following traffic (or at a small roundabout, to make it clear the oncoming traffic must stop) - I have all my bikes set up with 'euro style' brakes so that I can give that signal while having the main brake to hand.

    Otherwise I'd say about 95% of my hand gestures are acknowledging drivers who let me out/in/give me space etc.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  17. SRD
    Moderator

    Cars and bikes should always signal left. How can you justify not doing it? your post implies you only signal when it relates to your own safety/happiness, which is just selfish. Signalling is for the safety/ease of those AROUND you. Get signalling!

    Posted 14 years ago #

  18. Dave
    Member

    Actually the IAM would train you not to indicate habitually (the subject of many arguments at the CTC).

    I wouldn't say that I always agree with the IAM, but in this case, I do.

    Or are you telling me you always give the right arm pumping up and down "I am slowing down" signal every time you change speed? Thought not.

    It's what you're "supposed" to do though :)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    I see Dave and SRD are exchanging views again.

    Perhaps it should be a public event...

    Posted 14 years ago #

  20. SRD
    Moderator

    No. But I always indicate when turning left or right at an intersection, and I expect cars and other cyclists to do the same.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  21. Dave
    Member

    But who gave you the right to selectively omit signals?

    I give them when I feel they're needed, and so do you. Sounds like we're only different by degrees, really. :)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  22. SRD
    Moderator

    chdot: "Perhaps it should be a public event..."

    Everyone's welcome to join in :)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  23. SRD
    Moderator

    Dave: you have already argued that no one knows what the slowing down signal means, so a case can be made for leaving it. But, how do you justify not signalling when you turn left?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  24. spytfyre
    Member

    has this anything to do with SRD defending my not tinging oncoming people when Dave (who later says he hasn't got a bell) tells me I should get tinging? Dave who uses a voice box instead of a bell? I use something else instead of a bell for oncoming pedestrians/cyclists - it's called eye contact ;)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  25. Kirst
    Member

    speaking of signalling, since I gave up my MTB for a more hybrid thing I find doing 16mph down cobbled streets makes it difficult to signal at all...


    True. It's hard to signal and maintain control on cobbles. I also find coming down Nicolson Street from the Festival Theatre, if I want to turn left up Chambers Street and pedestrians are crossing Chambers Street against the red man, that can be interesting. I tend to keep my left arm out for as long as I reasonably can before I have to use it for braking but you can bet by the time I have both hands back on the handlebars, someone will have looked to see me apparently going straight on and decided to start crossing Chambers Street!

    Posted 14 years ago #

  26. Dave
    Member

    @SRD - I use the same justification for not signalling in any situation. Every moment you're riding one-handed is a moment when you're not in control of your bike, so should be done with careful understanding of the cost/benefit.

    In the case of the slowing down signal, there is no clear benefit that I can envision of giving the signal. Everybody on the road is used to overtaking cyclists because 99% of the time, cyclists are slow. Plus, there is a well-understood signal for "pulling into the side" (indicate left) which you could give instead.

    As for turning left, I wouldn't accept a motorist not signalling down Leith Walk because there are no downsides for them. In comparison when you signal on a bike, you have compromised your braking, steering, and balance- especially on the moonscape of some roads. If nobody gains anything from the signal then the scales of danger are going the wrong way giving it.

    It's also not a good assumption that when you give out information about your intentions, it will increase safety. For example, I always used to get frustrated when riding down the hill from Marchmont to KB, as soon as I stuck my left hand out the traffic behind would surge past (often one or two of the vehicles would then cut left across me at the junction).

    I stopped signalling left, nobody hooks me. This is actually in Cyclecraft I think.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  27. Min
    Member

    "I stopped signalling left, nobody hooks me. This is actually in Cyclecraft I think. "

    Yes I only ever signal left if there is someone waiting to pull out at the junction I am turning in to or if there is another cyclist close behind me for that reason.

    I try to avoid signalling as much as possible as it means taking your hands off the handlebars and there are several places where I can't signal at all as I need to brake at the same time. Or there are wall to wall potholes.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  28. Kim
    Member

    Back to the Highway Code:

    Rule 103: Signals warn and inform other road users, including pedestrians (see 'Signals to other road users'), of your intended actions. You should always

    • give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
    • use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
    • cancel them after use
    • make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
    • use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority

    OK so most of that advice is for drivers, but it is not difficult to see how it would apply to other road users. The important bit is at the start, "Signals warn and inform other road users ... of your intended actions". You don't always need to give a signal if it is clear what you are intending to do.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  29. cb
    Member

    Car drivers not indicating really annoys - it's not exactly difficult to indicate when you're sitting in a car. Worst places in my opinion are roundabouts where people either don't bother to indicate or don't know how to and motorways where 90% of drivers don't bother to indicate at all or only start to indicate when they actually change lane (which is about as useful as not indicating at all).
    Motorways probably not a concern for cyclists, but sloppy driving habits spread to all roads.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  30. spytfyre
    Member

    Charlotte Sq down to Queen st. where the normal path of traffic turns right and nobody indicates left - asking for a splat or you have to jump into the right hand lane inbetween two lanes of traffice - is why I normally go by the cycle path instead

    Posted 14 years ago #

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