CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

"I'm afraid I don't do religion..."

(28 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from Roibeard

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  1. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    This could be a test of CCE's nice nature... ;)

    Thought this was interesting from Baldcyclist, primarily because I think the same way, but at the same time I'm fascinated by it, and it would stop me attending a concert that happened to be taking place in a church.

    Religion as a concept I find utterly intriguing. How it formed, and changed, and adapted. I'll always visit grand cathedrals and mosques and Hindu temples and have had the pleasure of spending time in Sarnath, essentially the birthplace of Buddhism. Religion has a dichotomy of being directly responsible for a lot of good and bad in the world.

    It's not for me (my main problem is the mutual exclusivity (they can't all be right, so how do you know which one is?); closely followed by the fact that even if they were based on the word of some deity, man twists those words to suit himself (really interesting programmes on BBC3 (I think) recently about the role of women in religion and how over the years the male-dominated society has all but written out that role).

    I fall into the 'No problem with it as long as you don't try to force it on me' camp, as well as the 'Don't use your religious beliefs as a justification for your hatred' camp. I've no problem with people wearign religious symbols. Have no problem with people displaying their faith, as long as it's not by way of chastising those who haven't chosen the same path.

    Maybe I'm too much of a woolly liberal.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. SRD
    Moderator

    I've long felt that western christianity has lost the (positive) cultural side of religion and gets too hung up on 'beleif'. (think about people who claim to be 'culturally jewish') Living in eastern orthodox countries (which is also part of my family background) and in non-western chirstian countries, and in non-christian countries pretty much convinced me that my vague thinking on this was right.

    Book by a friend of mine 'belonging without believing'

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    SRD, that's a really interesting looking book - thanks for that. Yep, blind belief without really thinking or understanding is a bit of an issue. Hmmmm, may have to buy that.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Baldcyclist
    Member

    I'm a total hypocrite when it comes to religion, I really don't believe, can't, for many of the reasons already mentioned above.

    Now for the hypocrite, my wife believes (she's also a Royalist but no ones perfect!), and because of her belief I was willing to lie to a Minister, and go to church for 3 months before we got married so that she could get married in the church.
    I still get dragged along to midnight Christmas eve service to show face every year, and I chuckle and sigh quietly to myself as the minister pedals his propaganda. I don't go to any other service that my wife does though!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. SRD
    Moderator

    "the minister pedals his propaganda"

    a cycling minister! yay ! :)

    (ps baldcyclist - don't know if you saw my post in other thread but Polwarth is just a concert venue that is sometimes a church, sometimes does secondhand sales etc)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "I've long felt that western christianity has lost the (positive) cultural side of religion and gets too hung up on 'beleif'"

    Er yes, but then belief in deities, supernaturals, afterlifes etc. becomes irrelevant and it's about 'being nice', 'moral codes' etc.

    There are enough problems with 'organised religion' that increasingly people are unwilling to engage at all, and look at any good that might be done by some people who happen to be involved and (possibly) miss the merits of original values/teachings.

    Unfortunately there are also people attracted to more extreme versions of 'religion' which usually coincide with various forms of 'social conservatism'.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Interesting looking book, I have a colleague who is a devout Christian, and believes wholeheartedly in the word of God, and in the Bible, but refuses to align himself to any 'religion'.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. SRD
    Moderator

    chdot - I know a lot of Quakers who have problems with much of 'organised' religion, but also miss the liturgy, marking the seasons, sharing music etc that comes from standard christian worship. And also lots of christians (including ordained ministers), who go to Quaker worship to get away from all the trappings of their own traditions....

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. Uberuce
    Member

    My family joke that the doorway would burst into flames if I ever set foot into church, but I confess it didn't even occur to me to object to going to the concert on the grounds that it's in grounds.

    A few years ago I was compared to the moneylenders in the temple, by an extremely earnest young man who objected to the fact that we were taking money for tickets for a concert, this one in St. Cuthbert's.

    I didn't want to cause any more fuss than was necessary, so I didn't inform him I was an atheist who was only there because he loves the music and had agreed to be the token burly chap minding the money tin.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. Kirst
    Member

    I'm not religious at all. If I was capable of believing in any deity, I'd follow one of the pagan/nature religions, which make the most sense to me, but I just can't believe in deities. The misogyny of most religions horrifies me. Like anth,I enjoyed the recent BBC series about women in religion.

    One thing I find interesting is one of the ten commandments which says "you shall have no other god before me." It doesn't say "you shall have no other god at all" or "I am the only god, worship me." It seems to me that the god of the old testament, or at least whoever was writing on his behalf, completely accepted that there are lots of gods, not just the one.

    Has anyone read "My Year of Living Biblically" by AJ Jacobs? He's a New York Jew, Jew by birth and culture rather than by belief, and he decides to spend a year following all the commandments he can, not just the ones about praying and keeping kosher and being nice, but the really obscure ones too. By the end of the year he still doesn't know if he believes there is a god, but he finds the experience valuable and beneficial anyway.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. Roibeard
    Member

    I won't pitch in (much!) here, but I'm always happy to talk round the topic...

    So, Anth, grab me sometime over coffee if you wish to talk divine revelations rather than pedal revolutions.

    Fair warning though, I'm part of the leadership team in one of the local churches.

    As for God saying you shall have no other gods before me, I'd take this as a category statement...

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. Bhachgen
    Member

    Not religious at all and have very little respect for "organised" religions, for reasons that have been covered by others above already. I wouldn't let that put me off attending a concert in a church, nor even organising an event in a church. Ask yourself how all these beautiful big venues came to be built. They were built by the community, for the community, largely by direct taxation (tithes), or by donations from "the 1%" of their day, which they probably thought would get them off with all the commandments they had broken (or at least bent), and assure their little bit of earthly immortality in the form of a nice plaque.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Churches are usually also rather good acoustically...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. Stepdoh
    Member

    La-a-a-apsed Catholic here, fully educated, sacramented, altar boy, choir, west coast o' Scotland one. Bet that comes as a surprise. Disagree with more points that I agree with. So on balance...

    Married through no planning whatsoever to an even la-a-a-apseder one. In a field. On a road called Ram Paddock Road. Even says so on our marriage certificate.

    Number 1 kid baptised. Number 2 kid getting the same this weekend. One of the slight planned points of this was that there's a rather good catholic school in Leith. :)

    Don't like the business aspects of many churches, partic. the RC. Do like the essentially moral teaching at the heart of all moderate religions (even slightly fantatically moderate catholicism), outside of all the hate. The old fuddy duddy in me thinks it's something that's missing from a lot of people today.

    It's a worry that the vacuum caused by the lack of interest in woolly moderate 'old people's' religion has led to a rise in interest in far more exciting, but significantly less moderate and tolerant religions.

    As for the Celtic/Rangers thing? I was always a Morton supporter.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. recombodna
    Member

    David Icke's shape shifting lizards theory is far more believable than most organized religions in my opinion....

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. spytfyre
    Member

    I have an "I believe in Bill Hicks" t-shirt
    I was a pastafarian (but I got better)
    I have never been a Jedi (I demand the ability to force choke people in 4x4s too much)
    I am an ordained Dudeist Priest and have planned my own Dudeist funeral
    I too have issue with events in churches and for the following reason. I went to listen to one of the code breakers from Bletchley Park at the local "house of god". After the brilliant talk the minister stood up and "wanted to say a few words". Again at same house for a Big Lunch event another "few words"
    I think in future if I am paying to get in to an event I want warning if there will be "words" so I can exit early or not bother going at all.
    To quote Jenny Ha: "Dost thou preach at my lug?"
    My wife avoids mother/baby/toddler groups in such houses after growing tired of repeated attempts to believeify her.
    I'm not totally anti religion, I just agree more with Kevin Smith in Dogma - "I don't believe but I have a good idea"

    Edit: @recombodna - don't get me started on the subject of $ci£ntology

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. recombodna
    Member

    who mentioned scientology?? I'm talking reptilian agenda!!! ( other agenda's are available) Joking of course....... mmm white mice!!!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. Claggy Cog
    Member

    http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/p480x480/396054_350970338266416_117785548251564_1291265_1709235528_n.jpg

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. gembo
    Member

    Lot of nice people in church congregations [fairtrade, committed to the community etc]. Very good female vicar in our village. I am atheist but they don't check that at the door. Many, many teachers are religious. Lefties now all working in computers. As I see it as all made up I don't worry too much about exposing my kids. Rational thought etc. We have another organisation that was very proselytising with facist vicar in rainbow sweater (disagreeing with ordination of women]. Bit like the Taliban. Lot more nuances to this than I saw as a young man.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. Bhachgen
    Member

    Ironically there does seem to be one deity we can all agree on!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. gembo
    Member

    Bhachgen - are you referring to Henderson The Rain King?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. Baldcyclist
    Member

    My Granddad got involved in one of the lesser Christian religions after Gran died. I remember my mum being furious because he was always giving what little money he had to them, and he should join one of the 'proper' religions (cos they don't wan't you r money!).

    Even though I can't believe, I always thought it was positive at the time, he found belonging, and a community to get involved in, which was sadly lacking in his life at the time.
    So actually, as much as I hate the monetary aspect, and the organisation of the profit making business side of all religions, there is something really positive to be said for the social and community aspect even if based on misguided belief in an invisible being.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. Instography
    Member

    What starts as an attempt to explain the observable, physical world gets taken over by a group of the better educated who claim specialist knowledge derived from secret, closely guarded processes, access to which is restricted to a limited, strictly vetted group of believers. Within this core group a world view is developed and fed to the rest of the population in grossly over-simplified terms, urging them to live their lives according to a prescribed set of rules. Non-believers, doubters and critics are built up as enemies and pilloried and shunned. This both reinforces the hegemony of the leaders and produces a group mentality among the followers.

    Religion is distinctive because it relies on the secret knowledge being provided by a supernatural deity. You need to separate organisation and religion. Many of the things that atheists associate with religion are actually features of organisations. The description above, for instance, could be applied to organised fascism, Marxism or religion, with their fuhrers, central committees and high priests. Many organised social structures behave like this. When the Climategate scandal broke, I kind of thought that that had most of the features associated with "religion".

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Instography, you describe 'Religonists', and 'Climatologists', and actually, all other '...ists' fairly well there.

    Same argument used by all of them, join our club or you're doomed.

    EDIT, ah you already mentioned the climate thing.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. Roibeard
    Member

    Inst Religion is distinctive because it relies on the secret knowledge being provided by a supernatural deity.

    I'm pretty certain that's quite a Judeo-Christian definition, although I like your distinction between an exclusive organisation and "religion". As with Baldcyclist's friend, I don't really think in terms of following a religion.

    A pretty good rule of thumb is that if isn't in the public domain, or requires someone else to interpret it for you, then it's probably man-made rather than from God. I've no need of secret knowledge - I struggle enough with the simple bits!

    "'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' And, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

    Nothing hidden or difficult to understand there, just impossible to do...

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. Kirst
    Member

    As for God saying you shall have no other gods before me, I'd take this as a category statement...
    I have no idea what that means.

    I think religion comes from human's desire to explain the world and our existence, to believe in something happening to us after we die, and as a way of passing on knowledge and exerting social control. If you've realised that eating pork and shellfish in hot desert countries makes people ill, it's probably more effective to say "don't eat that tasty stuff or God will punish you" than "don't eat that stuff, it's bad for you."

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. gembo
    Member

    Sorry to reduce this to my usual core values of John Cleese/ John Belushi/ Jeff Bridges

    but at Pedal on Parliament we were first-ish there and adhered to the marshals telling us to move along to let others in. We were sitting right up at the wall next to the parliament and could here nothing of the speeches from the grassy knoll. I had to say it to my cycling chums "Blessed are the cheesemakers, what's so special about the cheesemakers"....

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. Roibeard
    Member

    @Kirst - the gods being objects, ideas, people, or even explanations, elevated to the level of worship.

    God is in a different category altogether, not to be found in (deduced from, made out of) what can be sensed, but the Creator of that nature, outside of it, and thus essentially beyond our reach, grasp or calculation. Fortunately though, the Unknowable spoke and ultimately became human.

    Hence "you should have nothing that isn't me in my place, I'm in a different league altogether!"

    But see above - don't trust my interpretation...

    Robert - a dairy farmer's son, so blessed once removed...

    Posted 13 years ago #

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