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"Congestion tax is the way to go"

(25 posts)

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    By Tim Harford (FT + BBC "UNDERCOVER ECONOMIST")

    "

    My environmentalist friends tend to dislike cars in general, and big, bulky, dangerous cars in particular. I don’t like lorries dressed up as cars either, but I am forced to acknowledge that the costs we drivers impose on society accrue less from what we drive and far more from when and where we drive it. For example, an SUV driven in rural Wales at 10pm on a Sunday imposes far less social cost than a Prius driven into central London at eight o’clock on a Tuesday morning.

    What we drive matters far less than one might think, partly because engines are much cleaner than they used to be and, therefore, emissions of important pollutants (with the key exception of carbon dioxide) have fallen precipitously over the past two decades. No, the real problem with cars is that they get in the way of each other, and a super-efficient car gets in the way of other cars just as much as the most ridiculous Chelsea tractor.

    "

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9635dd08-a476-11e1-a701-00144feabdc0.html

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. Instography
    Member

    I'll not hold my breath waiting on any party to impose that tax.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Tim Harford (@TimHarford)

    31/05/2012 02:17

    My weekend magazine column, in praise of congestion charges:

    http://timharford.com/2012/05/congestion-tax-is-the-way-to-go

    "

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Min
    Member

    "No, the real problem with cars is that they get in the way of each other, and a super-efficient car gets in the way of other cars just as much as the most ridiculous Chelsea tractor."

    This sums up my problem with electric cars.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. amir
    Member

    So greenhouse gases not an issue then.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. Min
    Member

    Personally I would increase fuel duty and decrease the other stuff. Make it cheaper to own a car but really expensive to drive it. Then maybe people would consider whether they really need to drive or not. Fuel in rural areas could be a bit cheaper rather than more expensive as it is at the moment but not too cheap because rural people need to consider how much they are driving too, they are by far the worst when it come to driving a few feet to the shops as there is no congestion or parking problems so they never ever consider walking.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. Min
    Member

    "So greenhouse gases not an issue then."

    Not in comparison to too many cars.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. crowriver
    Member

    Well everyone knows you can't walk or cycle to the village shop because the country roads are too dangerous due to all the cars speeding on their way to the village shop.....err...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. amir
    Member

    "Not in comparison to too many cars."

    ?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. Min
    Member

    Amir - It is not that hard. It appears that you would be happy to see the roads stuffed with electric cars piloted by drivers who are just as likely to be dangerous or aggressive as they are now because they would be the same drivers. I want to see a reduction in car numbers and car trips which is never going to happen if you simply electrify cars since it gives the owners a good reason to drive even more as they believe they are saving the planet by doing it. Only they are not because you are only removing the pollution to somewhere where you can't see it. Out of sight, out of mind.

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/06/10-3

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. amir
    Member

    I agree with that. However my view is that dealing with greenhouse gases is a far higher priority than our local problem of congestion. Electric cars just moves the fuel issue. Plus you still need to make and transport them.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. LaidBack
    Member

    Electric car model will also cause a problem as transport and electric household utilities vie against each other. Don't expect electric charges to come down because people use it for driving (!)
    Electric use on rail is good though as trains run more smoothly, are faster and last longer.
    Electric cars though will have short life just as usual in car business. Expect disposing of large Lithium batteries will be hot topic in future.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. kaputnik
    Moderator

    A future of a long queue of hybrid electric cars, with a single occupant in each, compared to the current long line in diesel/petrol cars, with a single occupant in each, means we will have spent a lot of money and not got any where at all!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. steveo
    Member

    Probably not as bad as you might expect, lithium batteries are already heavily recycled due to the low volumes of commercially available lithium deposits which is the real next problem with electric cars. All the commercial deposits of the lithium required for the batteries comes from places with stability problems so moving our resource dependency from the middle east to South America, China and the far eastern parts of the FSU.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. Min
    Member

    Yeah, we'd just have to bomb different people.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. crowriver
    Member

    Sourcing enough Lithium may also be an issue! Electric cars are not the solution, less driving, more public transport and active travel is far more sustainable.

    EDIT - Just spotted Steveo's post. Anyway, I wonder why the UK/Scot gov are so enthusiastic about electric cars?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I wonder why the UK/Scot gov are so enthusiastic about electric cars

    No or minimal behavioural change requirement / acceptance of reality to sell to voters.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. cb
    Member

    "Personally I would increase fuel duty and decrease the other stuff."

    But that doesn't work if everyone switches to electric vehicles. Hence the need to tax congestion, or create toll roads, etc.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. Min
    Member

    "But that doesn't work if everyone switches to electric vehicles. Hence the need to tax congestion, or create toll roads, etc."

    No, that is true.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Also, it leads to the prospect of domestic electricity costs being pushed up massively due to the demand for vehicle charging current.

    And you still have that big old queue of electric vehicles, with single occupants, sitting in traffic, goign nowhere, encroaching on ASLs, parking in cycle lanes, left-hooking you...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. wingpig
    Member

    ...and running out of power in the middle of a traffic jam, though someone will probably start up a bicycle-mounted mobile emergency recharging service.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. steveo
    Member

    And you still have that big old queue of electric vehicles, with single occupants, sitting in traffic, goign nowhere, encroaching on ASLs, parking in cycle lanes, left-hooking you...

    On the plus side the air quality will be massively improved, might not be such a big deal in Edinburgh but some cities still have bouts of fatal smog.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. Darkerside
    Member

    bicycle-mounted mobile emergency recharging service

    One of the more robust kickstands that lifts the wheel off the ground, coupled with a rear mounted dynamo maybe? Anyone know the power drain of an 'average' electric car per mile? Be intrigued to know how long it would take to pedal enough power in to shift it!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. Min
    Member

    "On the plus side the air quality will be massively improved, might not be such a big deal in Edinburgh but some cities still have bouts of fatal smog."

    Then those cities have an even bigger responsibility to get people out of their cars.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. cb
    Member

    There are certainly times when I am on the bike behind a car exhaust when I wish there were more electric cars on the road (not more cars though!)

    Converting all current road traffic in the UK would require an additional 17% of electricity output - I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

    It would be nice to think that at some point, electric cars could help with the unpredictable-ness of renewable energy by acting as a personal home capacitor. I.e. you can run your home off your car as well as charge your car from your home.

    But above all I am certainly in agreement that we need fewer cars, certainly in cities.

    Posted 13 years ago #

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