CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Legionnaires' disease cases expected to rise...

(54 posts)

  1. lionfish
    Member

    Off topic, but very local (to me!)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-18337813

    Little bit worried about this as we live very close to the towers they're referring to. I was feeling a bit grotty yesterday with a mild version similar symptoms to those described (but feel better now :) - can you get it mildly? minimoth's mum also had some symptoms. Probably coincidence...

    (and to get it on topic...)
    Luckily my health is good because I cycle, so can fight off bugs!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    'Guilty' chimney (I mean cooling tower) may be in this pic - or close by -


    Industrial Edinburgh

    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. spytfyre
    Member

    If that's the chimney I think it is neas the railway at Slateford then I think it doesn't do anything
    However it could also the the one at Haymarket?
    Going by the new pointy turret roofs to the left

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. Claggy Cog
    Member

    According to a public health document they think that the very first case may well have been as early as mid-May, as the incubation period is about a fortnight. I personally think most of the folk affected probably stand outside pubs smoking! Time will tell. You are more susceptable if you drink and smoke heavily, if you're male, if you are immuno-compromised/surpressed due to chronic illness or if you are elderly.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    Not really that chimney - the water vapour at the top of photo and other nearby companies are the 'suspects'.

    I think it's clear from news reports that the actually one is known, but they are waiting for final tests - and hoping it's just one (and sorted).

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Investigations have centred on four industrial cooling towers in west Edinburgh, including those at Burton’s Foods off Calder Road, pharmaceutical firm MacFarlan Smith in Gorgie and the North British Distillery.

    "
    "

    People showing symptoms of the disease are being asked if they attended Hearts’ Scottish Cup victory parade, any Jubilee street parties or other large gatherings in a bid to discover any links between those with the bug.

    But NHS Lothian said the only common factor established so far was that all those affected lived or worked in the Dalry, Gorgie or Saughton area.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/health/legionnaires-death-puts-city-on-alert-as-15-critical-1-2339684

    Posted 13 years ago #
  7. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Commonly the bacteria are found in air conditioning systems, of which I suspect that are very many in any one given area in conurbations. Too many to check and as with some of the previous outbreaks in the UK the source was never found. The most famous being, of course, the BBC.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. SRD
    Moderator

    We see big gouts of steam every evening - between canal and costorphine hill. always wonder what it is (brewery?)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Is it a Hibs conspiracy to reduce the number of Jambo supporters?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "We see big gouts of steam every evening - between canal and costorphine hill. always wonder what it is (brewery?)"

    If it's the one in my photo it's the Distillery - used to get water from the canal near Meggetland!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. SRD
    Moderator

    probably is. hard to work out the angle. just steam rising. that's a long way from the canal though.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    "
    brian donnelly ‏@donnellyherald

    North British Distillery says it's one of a number of sites with cooling towers and is ‘working with authorities’ in Legionnaires probe

    "

    Posted 13 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Sandra Dick ‏@sandradick

    Am at ERI, place is heaving. Overheard staff say legionnaires outbreak pushing hospital to the limit. Let's hope it's under control soon.

    "

    Posted 13 years ago #
  14. Claggy Cog
    Member

    It will be, I don't think the ITU is large enough, and HDU will also be pushed to the limits. The hospital was never large enough in the first place, when it was built. Heaven help us in the event of any major incident, the place would not cope, like a major fire or train crash, or even multiple pile-up. We are talking here of about 30 cases. ERI is constantly at tipping point of not being able to deal with the numbers that come through the front door.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    can you get it mildly
    yes apparently called Pontiac disease. Also apparently (Wikipedia again!) many cases not reported as they self-cure.

    We see big gouts of steam every evening - between canal and costorphine hill.

    Probably the NB distillery or the Johnsson Mathey medical opiates plant next door. I noticed this morning a lovely smell of toasting malt drifting westwards across the city, playing havoc with my rumbling tum.

    Also apparently (WP AGAIN) after cooling towers, the next biggest cause of spread is car windscreen washer systems!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  16. lionfish
    Member

    Thanks everyone for all the diligent research!

    We can constantly see the white steam from our windows in the semi-distance. At night, backlit by the stadium lights it looks very Blade-runneresque.

    (from all this information I wonder if people can triangulate my flat number)...

    All the windows of my previous flat looked out on Holyrood park. I do miss having it on my doorstep. But I don't miss the cold and damp of the ground floor rented tenement! (yay to a cosy warm modern flat!)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

  18. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Will we ever know where the majority of patients affected live though? Surely this would give a better idea of the source of the problem?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The map is a bit useless as it just pinpoints Gorgie, Dalry and Saughton as areas, rather than cases (be it by workplace, home or where they go to the gym etc.)

    according to KB weather log, the wind has been pretty consistently easterly for last few weeks. Wonder if this makes the distillery / methadone factory the more likely cantidate. If it were Aegon or Burton's you would expect more cases to the west of them rather than east?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  20. stiltskin
    Member

    Wind direction has changed now. Hope they've killed the bugs :(

    Posted 13 years ago #
  21. Arellcat
    Moderator

    @stiltskin: yes, I think the eye of the low pressure system has just passed beyond Edinburgh, so we should be in for a bit more rain and a change of wind direction along with higher air pressure. Today was remarkably calm, weatherwise.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  22. Zenfrozt
    Member

    Is it okay to drink the tap water? I'm totally confused about this whole thing. Conflicting advice has been emerging and wondered if any of you guys could advise?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  23. steveo
    Member

    Tap water is fine, the bacteria is carried in airborne water droplets. Not sure why it doesn't live in drinking water probably the chlorine etc.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  24. Zenfrozt
    Member

    Cool thanks Steveo :)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  25. Arellcat
    Moderator

    The Legionella bacterium is generally dormant in water below 20C, and above about 45C it dies with increasing rapidity and temperature; above about 70C will kill it outright. Biocides include chlorine dioxide, UV, and apparently ozone is one of the best agents.

    So domestically, the best and easiest thing to do is run the tap first to ensure mains water is cold, and hot water is hot.

    I was hoping that the bacterium was less resistant to external damage, but it seems that it can withstand atmospheric travel over several kilometres.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  26. ruggtomcat
    Member

    It cant be transmitted by drinking water full stop, you have to inhale airborne droplets.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jun/06/what-is-legionnaires-disease

    Posted 13 years ago #
  27. steveo
    Member

    Ah so you have to inhale it for it to cause illness, that makes sense given it effects your respiratory system primarily. Gut bacteria and stomach acids are probably able to deal with it when consumed in water.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  28. le_soigneur
    Member

    In other news, there have been 6 deaths from Legionella in Scotland this year - gardeners using compost.

    I don't know why the advice to gardeners is to wash your hands if using compost, what good is that in defeating something you inhale

    Posted 13 years ago #
  29. Rabid Hamster
    Member

    Legionella Factsheet, NHS Scotland (ASCII version text only 6/6/12)
    This factsheet has been created to provide upto-
    date and accurate health information for people
    living in the south-west of Edinburgh following
    a recent outbreak of Legionnaires’ disease.
    What is Legionella and what illnesses can it cause?
    Legionella is a bacteria (germ) found in the environment.
    It can cause two types of illness:
    • Legionnaires’ disease, which is a pneumonia
    (lung infection) and can often be a severe illness
    • Pontiac fever, which is a milder fl u-like illness.
    Where is Legionella found?
    Legionella bacteria is widely distributed in the environment
    and has previously been found in ponds and rivers.
    Problems arise when it contaminates man-made water
    systems, such as the water in air conditioning cooling
    systems, hot and cold water systems in buildings, spa
    pools, cooling towers and other artifi cial water systems.
    Is it safe to visit the affected area and should I take
    any precautions?
    We believe the risk to travellers to be low at present and
    there is no evidence to suggest that people should not
    travel into south west Edinburgh. The situation is being
    monitored and will be kept under constant review.
    Are children at risk?
    It should be noted that the illness is extremely rare in
    children and there are no cases in this current outbreak
    under the age of 30 years.
    Further Questions?
    Please contact the NHS 24 helpline
    on 08000 85 85 31 which is open
    from 8am – 10pm.
    How do you get Legionnaires disease or
    Pontiac fever?
    The commonest way to get these illnesses is through
    inhaling water droplets from a contaminated water
    system containing the bacteria. Legionella cannot be
    caught by drinking tap water, therefore there is no need
    for you to boil your water.
    Could I pass this on to family or other contacts?
    No. Legionella cannot spread from person to person.
    Who is at risk?
    For people who are healthy the risk is extremely low.
    However the risk is increased for:
    • People over the age of 50 years
    • Men more than women
    • Individuals whose immune system is suppressed
    • Patients with chronic lung disease
    • Individuals who smoke.
    What are the symptoms?
    • ‘Flu-like’ illness
    • Muscle aches
    • Tiredness
    • Headaches
    • Dry cough
    • High fever (39.5°C - 103°F)
    • Sometimes diarrhoea and confusion may develop.
    How soon do the symptoms occur?
    The time between exposure to the bacteria and onset
    of symptoms (incubation period) is between 2 and 10
    days, typically 5-6 days. In rare cases some people may
    develop symptoms as late as two weeks after exposure.
    How is it diagnosed?
    It is diagnosed either by testing a urine sample, a blood
    sample or a sample of saliva/sputum.
    What is the treatment?
    Treatment is with appropriate antibiotics, which will be
    prescribed by the doctor looking after you.

    Legionella Factsheet ends.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    @le_soigneur - different strains - the pneumonia strain in water droplets inhaled. The longbeachae strain (true, just google) in hot weather from decomposing compost. big in Australia apparently. Possibly ingested? Hence washing hands helps?

    Posted 13 years ago #

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