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Cycling is risky

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    The current 'helmet thread' mentions "cycling is dangerous" (I think used in an ironic sense) and also discusses "risk compensation".

    I thought this might be worth discussing away from helmets.

    There have been various discussion on here about "cycling is dangerous" - usually as the reason/excuse for people not cycling.

    'We' tend to say that cycling isn't dangerous - its the infrastructure, drivers, other cyclists etc. etc.

    I think cycling is risky, I'm conscious of this every time I cycle. So I consciously and unconsciously do various things -

    Make sure my bike is in reasonable condition. I'm aware what might break - or stop working effectively - especially the brakes.

    I'm aware of things like 'door zones' - and that it's not always practical to keep out of them, so I'm constantly scanning for the difference between a headrest and a head, looking in wing mirrors and listening for engine noise.

    I look at which way front wheels are pointing when I'm passing alongside a line of traffic.

    I know about potholes and their potential danger - and the 'problems' of 'wandering all over the road' as some drivers imagine you are doing.

    I take an interest in redesigned road layouts - especially temporary ones!

    All this has taken years. My assessment of risk is, naturally, personal, informed by experience - maybe that's a definition of "sixth sense".

    In short I'm wondering how much 'we' should acknowledge/understand that cycling is "risky" and, perhaps, encourage/help people to assess and take (the small) risks of becoming "cyclists".

    I think this forum is quite good for advising/encouraging newcomers to recognise and deal with the daily risks - 'cos they are worth taking. Cycling is basically safe, fun and life enhancing.

    Risk and assessment are things that are constant - and constantly changing! Not just about cycling - where to go/when (different day and night etc.)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. Smudge
    Member

    I would personally reject the statement "cycling is risky", certainly cycling carries some risks, however I don't feel they are generally significantly serious enough to outweigh the benefits.

    Clearly my view will have been coloured by accumulating some years of "road sense" and experience on both powered and unpowered two wheelers (there are more similarities than differences!).

    I can fully understand that returning or novice cyclists might well take a ride in traffic and come to the conclusion that "cycling is risky", however I would encourage anyone who feels that way to discuss the parts that concern them on here and consider some training. Bikeability is NOT just for kids, and even on ur course we watched one less experienced rider utterly transformed by the training.

    Of course it would make an even bigger difference if we could introduce effective driver training for motorists (I'm not counting self elective training such as IAM nor the pre-test training aimed squarely at passing a short test and not at broader road skills). But hey-ho, one step at a time...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. Morningsider
    Member

    I don't see any point in pretending that cycling is without risk, whether that be to life and limb, the occasional soaking or some physical exertion.

    However, many of these can be mitigated against (to varying extents). I would encourage anyone who is thinking of cycling and is worried about the risks to consider cycle training or at least meeting up with more experienced cyclists for a few trial runs. There is no shame in admitting you need a hand (a social risk?)

    The moderate risks of cycling can be outweighed by the benefits (massively so, in my opinion) - but these have to be experienced before many people realise this. I think the role of experienced cyclists should be to outline the actual risks (far smaller than many people assume), explain how they can be further reduced and assist new/returning cyclists in gaining skills and confidence.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. Min
    Member

    Is it possible to add a poll to this? I would love to know how many people have been struck by drivers (no matter whose fault) whilst walking, cycling or driving. I get the "winner" would be cycling by a long way. Especially given how many people have been struck on here and that only being a small sample of the people who cycle in Edinburgh every day.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. Instography
    Member

    Cycling is more risky than driving (about 8 times more likely to result in death or serious injury) but the absolute risk is vanishingly small. 0.57 deaths per million kilometres. I should expect to die cycling some time in the next 350 years. Can't say when.

    Thing is, it feels risky and the small risk is easily avoided.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Everything is "risky" and most risks are estimated subjectively and qualitatively.

    Risk = probability X impact. Helmet or other PPE aside, there's not much you can do as a cyclist to reduce the impact side of the threat of being hit by a car. Cyclists can take active measures as chdot describes to reduce the probability of the various threats we face being realised. While we continue to be presented with such p*** poor infrastructure that obliges us to be in / part of / in and out of / exposed to fast and heavy moving vehicles there's only so much that reducing probability of accidents occuring (hi viz, checking over your shoulder, clear signals blah blah) can achieve. You really tackle the probability and mitigate against the risk by providing more, better and safer infrastructure.

    There's a wide range of risks "we" face. New ones - such as the danger of crossing tram lines - will appear and when the party who have created the risk haven't done their homework, the probability will increase and after some painful lessons something gets done about it. Of course the people who have created the risk will tell you it is your responsibility to cross the lines in the dark and the rain at a shallow angle without falling over. They are passing the buck and doing what in risk management speak is called transferring the risk. Of course in business you normally have to get the person / party the risk is being transferred to understand, agree and sign up to the risk. They often do as it's usually cheaper and quicker for all concerned. When it comes to tramlines you just get exposed to the risk and there's nothing you can do about it.

    Where was I? There's a lot that government / authorities / other road users can do to reduce the probability. Reducing the impact is largely the preserve of things like getting traffic speeds down (being hit at 20mph vs. being hit at 40mph). Perhaps there's a small amount that can be done around safe vehicles by design, but that's tinkering around the edges in my opinion.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. Instography
    Member

    Accidents are a really poor guide. I fell off my bike yesterday and grazed my head against a wall. For many people that reinforces a perception of risk. Why I could have been killed! (You should wear a helmet, they say).

    If I relate the story of knocking an aluminium beam off a shelf in my garage and needing stitches in my head, no one would suggest getting rid of my garage or wearing a hard hat. (Although they might suggest storing metal beams closer to the ground).

    Some kind of confirmation bias. I think, deep down, people want cycling to be risky to avoid having to do the exercise.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. crowriver
    Member

    The current 'helmet thread' mentions "cycling is dangerous" (I think used in an ironic sense)

    Oh come on, wasn't it obviously sarcastic? If not, I will plainly state: I was being 'ironic'.

    Cycling is not dangerous, in that it rarely poses a real (as opposed to psychological/territorial) threat to others (though many non-cyclists percieve 'fast' cyclists to be a danger to others, pavement cyclists, etc.).

    Cycling can be hazardous, especially on fast, busy roads where the danger is represented by the motor vehicles in close proximity. Sport cycling can also be hazardous, eg. downhill mountain bike racing or Alpine road race descents. Neither of these sports activities is normally dangerous to others.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. Darkerside
    Member

    A big +1 to everything kaputnik just said.

    Everything is 'risky' in that it carries a risk of something unwanted happening. The coffee I'm about to make has the risk of a number of unpleasant impacts, but I will still go and refill my cup after writing this post as I believe the mitigation I put in place (watching vaguely what I'm doing) reduces the likelihood to an acceptable level with respect to the benefit gained.

    As said by kaputnik there's not a great deal you can do to reduce the impact of being struck by a car (clothing to prevent road rash, adjusting impact angles, scrubbing off your own speed, etc), but almost the entirety of cycle training and road sense is geared towards providing mitigating actions to reduce the likelihood of an impact occuring.

    Therefore I'd say: yes, cycling is risky in that it carries risk. Being a good cyclist drastically reduces the chance of something unpleasant occuring and may slightly reduce the impact if it does. With my mitigation in place, I accept this risk as I believe the benefits are greater.

    Right. Coffee time.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Oh come on, wasn't it obviously sarcastic? If not, I will plainly state: I was being 'ironic'.

    "

    I wasn't meaning it to be a direct reference to you. I thought that "dangerous" had been mentioned a few times - certainly in other threads with ironic, even sarcastic, intent.

    "hazardous" is another useful word!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Did someone say coffee? </threadcreep>

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. Darkerside
    Member

    In a journalist proof that cycling is safe; I managed to make my coffee without serious injury.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    Who's a threadcreep?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. Tom
    Member

    Well I agree with Kaputnik. The only thing I can think to add is that cycling seems riskier to me when I'm sitting thinking about it than when I'm doing it. I've no idea why that is. But I think it means I take a different and perhaps unrealistically pessimistic view from my desk compared to the one I have when I am riding.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. Baldcyclist
    Member

    The very occasional twinges I get from my once cracked ribs, and the feint scars on my left arm and leg remind me how risky cycling is, for me at least.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. gembo
    Member

    Tom perhaps you are in a necessarily heightened state of arousal when cycling compared to when you are at your desk? Being aware of the risks involved in using roads used by cars etc is a good thing.

    there is a mini helmet debate that happens on here occasionally about headphones. I cannot use them as I become lost in music, I am caught in a trap, no turning back

    I also like disentangling the risk debate from the helmet debates.

    I think headphones are part of the risk debate but then I can't use them

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. SRD
    Moderator

    "I look at which way front wheels are pointing when I'm passing alongside a line of traffic."

    So do I, but it is useless. learner drivers clearly no longer told to 'straighten wheel' after parking.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. Tom
    Member

    gembo: "Tom perhaps you are in a necessarily heightened state of arousal when cycling compared to when you are at your desk"

    Yep, that must be it because I'd never be in a heightened state of arousal at my desk.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. gembo
    Member

    tom I could phone you at your desk and try to wind you up?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. Uberuce
    Member

    It's a bafflement, of such magnitude that I wonder if I'm secretly an alien observer whose memory has been blanked to help him/her* interact with the natives more naturally for data gathering purposes, to me that the consensus seems to be that driving is something that happens to you, as opposed to being a freely made choice that creates a hazard.

    The resulting transfer of responsibility, from the creator of the hazard to those put at risk by it, is crackers mad.

    But it's the way things currently are here(maybe strict liability would be a major help?) so we cyclists are expected to manage the hazard other people inflict on us.

    It can be done to the point that the risk it presents becomes vanishingly small, thankyouInsto, but that's a skill that took me weeks or months to master.

    Good infrastructure and responsible driver attitude make the level of competence you require much more accessible.

    If you cast your minds back to POP28, we temporarily made awesomesauce infrastructure by dint of making the road a carpet of cyclists, and the cops dripping off every junction meant the skill required was "I'm three and can ride my balance bike".

    On PAE29, Pedal Around Edinburgh 29th et al, you had to have your ninja back on.

    I wouldn't recommend to a novice that they try the central rush hour bearpit.

    *since I've not to the best of my knowledge reproduced, I can't exclude the possibility I'm female.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. gembo
    Member

    *like a bearded lady? What odds would you give me über uncle (iPad auto typing I felt inclined to leave) if I wanted to bet you that you were male?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    @gembo - I think you'll find that the planet he comes from genders are reversed...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    "
    David Brennan (@magnatom)

    12/06/2012 21:08

    Another Inconvenient (Cycling) Truth http://www.magnatom.net/2012/06/further-inconvinient-cycling-truth.html Cycling isn't dangerous at all...is it?

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    "So do I, but it is useless. learner drivers clearly no longer told to 'straighten wheel' after parking."

    Actually I was meaning the stationary queue not the parked ones, but I see what you're meaning!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. alanr
    Member

    If I may, I'd like to suggest that cycling is not a *very* high risk sport, but as almost all my cycling gets done in the "central rush hour bearpit" (well described, I feel) that it does - at times - feel like a risk sport. It certainly feels more risky than car-driving in the same environment, probably because I feel protected by my one-ton metal shield, and because I experience less harassment in my car - I could certainly have done with one of those last night (see "today's rubbish driving" if you don't know). I feel that it's about risk-perception, rather than real risk. And perception of risk is what may stop people from trying cycling. What does everyone think?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. minus six
    Member

    Road cycling appears risky because it requires a high level of awareness and assertiveness in an intensely intimidatory environment, and many people are uncomfortable maintaining that, day in day out.

    I get weary of the adrenaline production on a one hour commute, and while the level of motorist risk taking is probably much the same as its ever been, the ongoing antagonism certainly takes its toll.

    If my commute was a twenty minute urban traverse, i'd probably find it easier to remain a bit more zen about the whole risk thing.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    "And perception of risk is what may stop people from trying cycling. What does everyone think?"

    I think that's very much the case which is why I started this thread to move on from the 'cycling is dangerous' argument (a public rather than CCE one).

    I think it's also clear that the risk(s) can/should reduce with experience - and probably training as some people have suggested.

    But, clearly, there are real risks that are completely outwith our control!

    I think it's also the case for (some) novices that there are extra issues relating to fitness and stamina - and perhaps the 'right' bike - or at least one set-up properly.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. alanr
    Member

    I have a thirty-minute daily urban run and it certainly requires high concentration to avoid trouble. Course, it really takes your mind off work.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  29. wingpig
    Member

    "I think it's also clear that the risk(s) can/should reduce with experience - and probably training as some people have suggested."

    Every time I set off from some lights it occurs to me that whilst I can happily lift my foot from the ground and push away, glancing about and frowning in whichever direction requires it there will be people who have to push away along the ground with their feet and/or look down to the pedal to get their foot in place and/or really have to strain to get rolling and/or can't push hard on the pedals without accidentally pulling the handlebars from side to side and/or are sitting way too far to the left so that by the time they're rolling smoothly they then have to slow down again in order to wait for a gap to get past the car parked in their lane across the junction which they didn't anticipate.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  30. Greenroofer
    Member

    When I first came to Edinburgh after 10 years of city cycling in Oxford, I thought nothing of entering the city centre bearpit, and used to enjoy a rush-hour trip down Lothian Road and Queen Street.

    Then I stopped cycling regularly, and rapidly got (a) unfit and (b) frightened.

    It's taken me several years to get my confidence and fitness back.

    To wingpig's point, it's easy for regular cyclists to forget just how hard work it is and how frightening and risky it feels for the inexperienced.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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