Primary position... « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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Primary position...

(21 posts)

Started 12 years ago by Baldcyclist
Latest reply from steveo

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Baldcyclist
Member

There's a lot of talk of the benefits of riding in 'Primary position', and I have to admit it is my preference.

Got me thinking though, when you're cycling along and you can here the engine behind you getting closer, or the toot of a horn, and you think "Sorry mate, I've got as much right as you to be on this road. You'll just have to wait!".

Same also happens occasionally on the narrow cycle path up to the Bridge. I'm riding Primary and a faster cyclist comes up behind, pings their bell, and expects me to move. Only on these occasions I oblige, often get a face full of branches from the bushes as I let them past.

I have also been behind pedestrians, and other cyclists on narrow cycle paths, dinged my bell, and expected them to move over the grass to allow me past.

Sooo, should we always take Primary? Don't allow anything past at any cost, or should we regardless of our mode of transport, walking, cycling, driving, let those who are faster past (as long as safe to do so)?

Just struck me (in my own behavior too) when a car is behind me... nope not moving till the road is at least as wide as a motorway! When I'm behind, I want past because...

Posted 12 years ago #
spytfyre
Member

I've started taking the primary a lot more when turning right onto Randolph Cres and then keeping it until Great Stuart Street (in fact all the way to Glouscester Street and then on along Hamilton Place, and when I think about it I started this morning at Haymarket) I don't know what point it kicks in on my route but it is creeping closer and closer to home and to work...

On the canal I always walk on the right so I can make eye contact with on coming cyclists as you ~~would~~ are supposed to do on a country road.

When cycling behind others cycling or walking on road or canal I always give the slower person lots of time. My rush is never theirs and I'm never that rushed...

Posted 12 years ago #
BenN
Member

As far as I see it, there are two reasons to take primary on the road:

1) Overtaking by other road users would be unsafe (either for me, them or both), and I mean to stop them doing so for as long as necessary

2) The person behind me annoyed me

and of the two, it is *usually* the former that will see me in the middle of the road. (Although the latter often follows on from a prolonged period of the former). There are few things more satisfing than a leisurely pootle along in front of the idiot who honked repeatedly at you for having the audacity to use the same carriageway as him (or her)...

When on a shared path, I always pull out to overtake, then straight back in to the left again, but that's purely because I don't want to hold anyone else up whilst I trundle along singing along with the birds in the finest disney fashion.

Posted 12 years ago #
Baldcyclist
Member

@BenN @spytfyre That is generally my view on the road too. Suppose what I am wondering is do we have the same view on the path?

As a pedestrian, or when a faster cyclist comes along, do you think, "ding away, your not getting past, I have as much right to this path as you do!", or do you move to the side?

As a cyclist, for some reason I expect them to move for me, sometimes I get rather annoyed when they ignore me and I can't get past. Is it then understandable if motorists feel the same, as we (or at least I) appear to do the same when on my bike?

Posted 12 years ago #
BenN
Member

I see where you're coming from - but perhaps a single distinction needs to be drawn that a bicycle overtaking another, or even a pedestrian on a shared path will always have more space proportional to the size of the vehicle than a car overtaking a bike within the same carriageway.

For this reason I think it is reasonable to expect another user of the shared path to move aside for you (and if you have to slow right down to allow them to do so, or so that you can make them aware of your presence when they didn't hear your bell so be it), whilst it is not always reasonable for a car driver to expect the same.

It is almost always possible for bicycles to pass safely, but the same can not be said for cars.

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

"It is almost always possible for bicycles to pass safely, but the same can not be said for cars."

This is pretty much what I was going to say. It's a case of I'll move over if it's safe to do so.

On a bike with a car behind that depends very very much on the road conditions, layout, and other traffic.

On a bike on a path with a bike behind that also depends on layout, and pedestrians etc.

As a pedestrian on a path there's usually absolutely nothing stopping me moving to allow someone faster to get by.

"My rush is never theirs"

That's a beautiful outlook. I'm going to remember that one and steal it for my own use some time.

Posted 12 years ago #
Min
Member

I don't think it is reasonable to block anyone unnecessarily whatever you or they are driving/riding/wearing on their feet.

It is reasonable to expect a ped who is walking down the middle of the cycle path to move over because all they need to do is move over. It is not reasonable to expect them to stop and wait for you go through a chicane first (though actually a lot do so I just thank them or wave them through first). This goes for a slower cyclist too. No-one seriously expects us to ride behind them at walking pace until such time as your paths diverge just out of sheer bloody-mindedness do they?

I am normally only in primary position for a very good reason. It is not to block drivers, it is to prevent them from driving their car over me and when the hazard has been passed, I move over.

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

"I am normally only in primary position for a very good reason. It is not to block drivers, it is to prevent them from driving their car over me and when the hazard has been passed, I move over"

Exactly. Or as Mr Red Minibus driver said to me, "You're riding in the middle of the road [sic] on purpose!".

Well... Yes... But that 'purpose' isn't to annoy and antagonise you just for the hell of it, it's because over there on the left it's wet, there are potholes, it's off-camber, there are manhole covers, and there are parked cars coming up...

Posted 12 years ago #
mgj
Member

Well, I dont move out of the way for bikes on the pavement (toddlers excepted). I sometimes wonder about adopting a bull-fighting stance with my coat ;-)

On the road, as a driver it really is a concious effort sometimes to remember to give time and space to cyclists and to hang back enough that you dont feel you are hassling them. If they are actually pedalling, its so much easier though.

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

"...as a driver it really is a conscious effort sometimes..."

The 'going really slowly behind something for a bit' manoeuvre is much less complicated than even a simple overtake. Cars only go fast if you tell them to. Hopefully trickling-along speed results in a non-aggressive sounding engine noise which lets the cyclist in front of me know that I'm giving them time.

Posted 12 years ago #
Instography
Member

It's reasonable to think that many or most drivers don't understand the need to keep out of the door zone or the need to be able to skip around potholes etc. They have wing mirrors for whiskers so only need to be that far away from anything and they almost never get doored. So when you're in primary they don't see you taking sensible precautions for your safety (and for their own good too if they knew what you were doing. I don't believe drivers really want to hit cyclists). They see you taking up lots of space without any clear reason.

I think it's an area of genuine misunderstanding. Some communication might help. I do a little wave type of thing, like a low right turn signal, arm down, palm towards them. It's meant to be a sort of, "I know you're there and that I'm in the way. I'll move in a second." gesture. Not sure if that's what it comes across as. They seem to know that I know they're there.

Posted 12 years ago #
PS
Member

It very much depends on the circs, but my general approach is is to behave as I would hope others would behave towards me.

I'll ride in primary but will move over where safe if there's someone faster behind me. I wave them through and acknowledge thanks if I know they've shown consideration by slowing behind me and have not been driving like a dick.

Being bolshie and holding cars up behind for no reason other than "I've as much right to be here as you" just serves to lower drivers' view of cyclists and encourages them to try to get past as soon as possible, which is where incidents are more likely to happen...

Consideration for other users needs to be deployed on shared-use paths as well, but behaviours are slightly different because encounters are face-to-face, not anonymous.

Posted 12 years ago #
Roibeard
Member

My usual commute has a primary position everywhere where I've been scared by an inconsiderate close pass, or left hook.

As with spytfyre, these tend to increase in number, but I think the increase is finite and won't include the whole route - in other words, I will use some advisory cycle lanes.

In the "I hide a good ride today" vein, I went out with 6 kids and 2 other adults today, and it was much more comfortable to be doubled up even in the presence of cycle lanes (and only 8 mph) than to single up in the lane. For a start, controlling the kids would have been much more difficult and junctions would have been distinctly hazardous. Instead drivers waited patiently for a safe place to overtake - one or two were surprised by traffic islands that jumped out at them, but there was no revving or emergency braking, they simply had to slot back in behind.

The one passenger (!) that objected and pointed out the cycle lane, was in a black van (to break the stereotype) that was also giving us plenty of space.

Primary is there to aid all road users, which brings me back to "why isn't it in the Highway Code?" Definitely need to raise that again when it comes up for revision!

Robert

Posted 12 years ago #
Uberuce
Member

I'm still not assertive enough with primary. Equally it could be said I give drivers the benefit of the doubt too much.

What affects my riding style is the level of grumpiness from car engines as they approach me once I've been forced into primary by road conditions. If their mechanical tone of voice is rude, then I take my own sweet time, which is good luck for them if I happen to be riding quickly that day, but a wee shame if not.

I will bet handsomely that the Wingpigmobile's voice is as measured as its driver, and in the presence of such civilised individuals, I either dig deep or show off, depending on energy level, so we can get to a spot in the road where we can safely part ways in the most expedient fashion.

Posted 12 years ago #
Nelly
Member

I dont even think about it anymore, and just take the best position for me based on the road conditions, other traffic and surrounding hazards.

One place I always take it is right turn up Ashley Terrace from Slateford Rd (uberuce knows this part well) where a combo of dreadful surface and parked cars mean you need to power right up to the bridge in a really strong primary.

Posted 12 years ago #
ruggtomcat
Member

A cycle policeman went past my elbow as i was walking down the cowgate today, so far into the gutter he was on the single yellow. I guess policemen are much less likely to be hit (would love stats on this) but I was still astounded by his road position, the cowgate is narrow, fast, full of pedestrians and really busy during the day with everything from taxis to tour buses and construction traffic. I take the whole thing in primary usually and sure enough Mr policeman was constantly being passed closely, with oncoming traffic.

I don't really have the drivers perspective on this, but I take a hell of a lot of primary! Mainly to avoid all the parking. My philosophy is that when i need to be safe I pretend I am a car, and then a bike when its convenient. as soon as my speed rises above 20mph I automatically take primary, because its then that the really bad stuff can happen, fast.

For example the entire journey from the royal mile to the bottom of leith is done in primary or in the buss lane, in primary :) On the way back I mainly stick to the outside edge of the cycle lane because of the parking, then regain primary before elm row and the junctions there.

Posted 12 years ago #
Darkerside
Member

Ditto with RTC. Unless I'm particularly confident with the road, if I'm above 30kph I'm in primary.

In the middle of Glasgow I'm (almost) always in the middle of a lane and will proceed as if I was a car in most cases. Filtering is rare. I suspect the somewhat flatter nature of most of Glasgow helps here with keeping up speed!

Posted 12 years ago #
mgj
Member

Wingpig wrote "...as a driver it really is a conscious effort sometimes..."

The 'going really slowly behind something for a bit' manoeuvre is much less complicated than even a simple overtake. Cars only go fast if you tell them to. Hopefully trickling-along speed results in a non-aggressive sounding engine noise which lets the cyclist in front of me know that I'm giving them time. "

If it is just you on the road, I agree, but when there is other traffic around, that may not realise that you are being kind to a cyclist rather than just deciding to dawdle along, then it is more tricky. case in point last night, I turned right into Shandon behind a guy, and couldnt pass due to traffic/narrow road/zig zags and blind summit. None of that seemed to make any difference to the taxi behind me flashing his lights and hooting his horn at me. That's quite difficult to concentrate on.

Posted 12 years ago #
PS
Member

@mgj That to my mind is one of the main causes of bad driving. Not so much the "grrr! this cyclist is in my way and delaying my journey, I will accelerate past forthwith" approach of the aggressive driver, more the "oh god, all the drivers behind me are going to get angry at me for holding them up, I'd better squeeze past this cyclist at the earliest opportunity" reaction.

Drivers should have enough self confidence to drive to the conditions as they see them and not be influenced by intimidation from others. A similar principle to cyclists taking primary, if you will.

Posted 12 years ago #
fimm
Member

Has anyone else cycled through the roadworks on the Lanark Road between the Gillespie Road crossroads and the bridge over the bypass recently? I came through there yesterday and there was a worker there making gestures, I assumed at me, as if I should be to the side or something. I don't think there's enough space through there to let people pass you (especially as there were 3 double decker busses in the queue behind me - I knew this because they'd passed me on the way down the hill and then I'd filtered past them to the temporary lights). Would others sit more to the side, or take primary? I did hurry up as much as I could...

Posted 12 years ago #
steveo
Member

I always take primary through there, no way anything can safely get passed. Minimum wage road monkeys can just get knotted if they think I'm going to put my self in a dangerous position so's not to hold the traffic up for another 2 minutes when they've already queued for 20 minutes just to get to the junction...

/Rant

Posted 12 years ago #

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