Road position with kid onboard? « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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Road position with kid onboard?

(23 posts)

Started 12 years ago by HankChief
Latest reply from Dave

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kid primary

HankChief
Member

1st time poster…

Hi - I'd appreciate your thoughts on a debate I got into with a taxi driver at the weekend.

I was cycling back with my boy on the tandem from the Pleasance to the safety of the Family Network at Roseburn. All in all, we had a good day out and no particular problems with any traffic.

However: Similar to how I ride on my own, I was taking primary position down Morrison street by the restricted width section near the EICC. At the next lights the taxi behind my winds down the window and says that I shouldn't be riding "so aggressive with a child on board as someone will knock me off". I tried to explain that I was riding primary, but it didn’t seem to convince him.

It was an ammicable interaction, but did give me something to ponder on the rest of the ride home.

I accept that with a child on board you should try to find the quieter routes where possible, but on the same stretch of road, I would take the same position (unless my speed was siginificantly different). My logic being that I want to go home in one piece whether I have a kid with me or not.

Was I wrong? - Should I assume that the 'aura' of having a kid on board will make riding primary unecessary, or should I be donating my copy of Cyclecraft to the taxi company.

Interested to know how much other adapt their positioning to the load they are carrying.

Thanks

HC

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

Not wrong in the slightest. If you ride in primnary when on your own because it makes that section of road safer (as we all know primary does in the right circumstances, in which I'd include that section) then it would be ridiculous to ride differently if you have your child on the tandem - essentially if you didn't ride in primary you would actually be riding in a way that you thought (and indeed does) make the process more dangerous.

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

Oh, and welcome... ;)

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Welcome.

"I accept that with a child on board you should try to find the quieter routes where possible"

That depends.

Makes sense if you have a child on their own bike to keep away from the more notorious roads.

But on a tandem - presumably with an experienced child??

Sounds like the driver was looking for an excuse other than the usual you're in MY way.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

I think you were absolutely correct on that stretch of road.

I always take primary on the tandem with my son on board, unless the road is wide enough to allow a generous secondary. I've added one of these to the right hand rear carrier recently to 'remind' drivers to not pass so incredibly close...

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Taxi driver sees tandem

It's bigger

Even more in HIS WAY

Child just an excuse to pretend he cares...

Posted 12 years ago #
LaidBack
Member

Welcome to the foray.

I'd say you were completely right... primary at this point is much better and with tandem you do always need to stay clear of kerbs, door zone and people crossing.
If you hadn't been in that position he may have tried to squeeze you out whilst considering a you a 'nuisance' on his inside. (Although to be fair his comment wasn't malicious so he may have behaved perfectly well.)

Good that you stayed amicable and that interaction does more to improve understanding and keep people sane.

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

yup. agree on all fronts, and this is certainly what I do/would do on my tandem with my kids too.

Unfortunately, what 'we' see as safer cycling is probably perceived as putting our kids in danger by many well-meaning drivers. (but when they double park, drop off in 'no stopping' zones, and block lines of site by parking on corners with double yellows, they somehow don't consider that they might be endangering us MORE).

Posted 12 years ago #
HankChief
Member

Thanks for the responses - and for agreeing with me :-)

The thing that got me was that

a) he associated riding in the 'middle of the road' as 'aggressive', when it's actually attempting to be the opposite.

b) he was only speaking to me because of my son, and he was quite adamant about it - '... but not with a kid onboard'

To be fair he stayed a safe distance behind and only came up to talk to me at the lights, so I have no complaints with his driving - just the view he had of my cycling and my parenting...

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"just the view he had of my cycling and my parenting"

We all have views of other people's cycling

and parenting...

Posted 12 years ago #
Uberuce
Member

Taking primary implies:

1) You don't trust the driver's skill in making an overtake if secondary would allow a close one.

b) You don't trust the driver to assess this for him or herself.

Fourth) You don't consider their time more valuable than yours and therefore will not pull in until they've cleared the pinch.

The only one I can feel bothered by is (b). It's a bit like going round your upstairs neighbour's flat every night at 10pm and installing a limiter on their hi-fi's volume dial. Stereo only goes up to 9: it's one quieter. Fair enough if it's noisy students, but a touch insulting for working stiffs.

(1) is nonsense too, since there's no way I'm trusting myself to keep a predictable and narrow line on a hardwood track, let alone on the Embra moonscape.

Sad fact is that you're hugely safer doing the (1) and (b) implications, and that unless you're actually immortal, you really don't have all day to waste for gaps in traffic, especially during the cyclocommute where a P45 would await you if you took all morning to get in every day.

Posted 12 years ago #
gembo
Member

I was knocked off whilst taking a very old tow along home after a colleague gave it to me (an old pole with bmx on it). Side street between bruntsfield links and Gilmore place. Wee boys ran straight into me from between parked cars. Your taxi driver has expressed his opinion without rancour and without rancour back we can say we don't agree.

I was in a taxi today with my bike. Driver spotted Rodney Bewes (given that he looks like a Likely Grandad I thought good spot)

I saw a tandem yesterday with a tow along coming from the rear, looked like a bendy bus. Had a big flag, unnecessarily as very visible but maybe the dad put it on to stop people being passremarkable? We can all be passremarkable

Posted 12 years ago #
Tom
Member

One thing I've learned as a parent is not to question other people's parenting. The taxi driver committed a major faux-pas; tantamount to talking about religion or politics at a dinner party.

Posted 12 years ago #
Darkerside
Member

@LB - I can't work out if your use of foray is a brilliant autocorrect of forum, or deliberate. I'm enjoying it all the same.

@Uberuce - you forgot pi) the road condition in secondary is only rideable on a vehicle with tank tracks. Fast becoming my leading cause.

Posted 12 years ago #
Uberuce
Member

Pi? I like your style, sir. And the point after the pi is darned true too.

Oh, and welcome to Da Fambly, HankChief.

Posted 12 years ago #
Morningsider
Member

HankChief - I agree with Tom. The taxi driver wasn't commenting on your road position, he was effectively calling you a bad parent for "putting your child at risk" by transporting them by bike. This is a widely held view in my experience - I was once told by a colleague that using a child seat (which I do) was tantamount to child abuse. Nice - especially coming from someone who smokes!

Cool name by the way - wouldn't happen to have a copy of "The Troll" by Julia Donaldson at home?

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

I don't think my childseat generates an aura. It's usually used on the wider-handlebarred and uprightier-sitting-positioned bike, too.

Posted 12 years ago #
le_soigneur
Member

If you had been on a motorbike with a child able to reach the pegs, I bet the taxi-driver would have not stuck his oar in about your "aggressive" road position or having a kid pillion.
Though there is no difference in fact, perception between a bike and a motorbike is different.

Agreed that there is no harm in the taxi driver discussing his point of view and as long as you are strong enough to not be put off by him, you can agree to disagree with him, hopefully he continues to respect your right to a (different) view. The main thing was he respected your right to be on the road by behaving with due care.

Posted 12 years ago #
HankChief
Member

@Wingpig
I don't think my childseat generates an aura

I would say that when riding with a childseat/tagalong/ tandem etc, that I perceive I'm getting a wider berth most of the time - although when they are close it is more concerning.

It's probably that 'those that care', care a little bit more and the 'those that don't care' still don't care.

I should admit that I am a signed up member of the hi-viz (and occaisonal flag) brigade, which probably helps.

@Morningsider
`Cool name by the way - wouldn't happen to have a copy of "The Troll" by Julia Donaldson at home?
`

Guilty as charged... We were on the way back from "The Snail and the Whale" at which said author sat in front of us - oh how the yummy mummies of Edinbra clambered for a autograph / photo of the poor woman...Why, I don't know...

Posted 12 years ago #
Dave
Member

At the end of the day, the point of riding prominently in the road is that it's less likely to lead to a sticky end. Naturally, blocking people from doing something dangerous may annoy them - that's the price you pay for being safe (as a ratio, the number of people who will carelessly smash into a gutter cyclist is almost infinitely higher than the number who will intentionally try and kill an annoying cyclist)

Logically, riding in a more dangerous position in the gutter because you've got a child on board is perverse...

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

(as a ratio, the number of people who will carelessly smash into a gutter cyclist is almost infinitely higher than the number who will intentionally try and kill an annoying cyclist)

I'd say your numbers may be wrong. You haven't factored in punishment/revenge passes some time after the offence of 'cyclist in the middle of the road' (usually as soon as possible for some drivers). Take your point though.

Posted 12 years ago #
gembo
Member

I think much has been suggested re the taxi driver's motivation that is conjecture. We all disagree with his viewpoint but he put it forward in a reasonable way, many taxi drivers are quite reasonable. When you go out cycling with your kids on main roads on their own bikes or on tow alongs etc, your heart can be in your mouth. Most people give the kids a real wide berth but some get stroppy. How can you learn road sense without getting out there before you are totally skilled? We all know what it is like even when we are experienced. what are we to do Minny Caldwell?

Apparently there is a version of the gruffalo in scots which is worth getting

Posted 12 years ago #
Dave
Member

You haven't factored in punishment/revenge passes some time after the offence of 'cyclist in the middle of the road' (usually as soon as possible for some drivers). Take your point though.

I'm not really convinced that's as much of a problem as you might think, same reason why I don't believe that individual cyclists running lights or riding on the pavement is any more significant than motorists breaking 'their' laws.

There are people who like to have an excuse to drive abusively, but it's just that, an excuse. To assign some kind of collective responsibility / punishment to the general public is unduly pessimistic (we have enough trouble with them being careless, reckless or dim without needing to add in a conspiracy that they've all got a tally chart and are evening the score because they once saw a cyclist do something they didn't like).

Posted 12 years ago #

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