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Councillor wants "evidence" about ASLs and RLJs

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "
    In Edinburgh there are around 490 advance stop lines (ASLs).  65% of signal controlled junction arms have them.

    There is often debate as to whether they are legally enforceable.  So here is my take on the issue.  The Highway Code (Section 171) seems to be clear that they are.  As this web page lays out, under Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 encroaching motorists can have a fixed penalty of £60 imposed and an automatic 3 points added to the offender's licence.

    Under the same section cyclists running red lights can have a fixed penalty of £30 imposed.

    Are these laws ever enforced? I mean other than warnings in 'awareness campaigns'.   I am told that there are at least six police officers operating one day a week in the city to enforce ASLs and report cyclists ignoring red lights.  This resource has been put in place until November 2012. 

    I'm looking for on street evidence of this.

    "

    http://cameronrose.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/advance-stop-lines.html

    Posted 5 years ago #
  2. Snowy
    Member

    Not sure what sort of evidence he's looking for. I spend over an hour a day cycling city streets but I have yet to see a single enforcement against either a car in an ASZ or a cyclist jumping lights.

    Surely he could obtain precise figures, not based on hearsay, through a simple FOI request?

    We could certainly prove the *lack* of enforcement by taking lots of photos and videos of the ASZ transgressions we all see daily ;-)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  3. crowriver
    Member

    Yeah I'm looking for evidence of the existence of the Abominable Snowman. Also having trouble finding my needle after it fell into a big pile of hay.

    Odds on I'll get the results I want around the same time, if not sooner, than Cll Rose gets his evidence.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  4. Instography
    Member

    If six officers working normal shifts each spend six hours on the beat patrolling Edinburgh's 754 light-controlled crossing, enforcing ASLs or collaring errant bicyclists, then each crossing is observed, on average, for 2.86 minutes.

    If the average light sequence runs for 3 minutes and
    using the known facts that 40% of cyclists jump red lights and hardly any motorists ever knowingly enter an ASL, calculate the probability of anyone being caught.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  5. Tom
    Member

    At the junction just across the river from here they could catch a couple of red light jumpers and up to five yellow box infringements (£80 fixed penalty each) on every traffic light sequence. Not many cyclists but would they really run a red to get crushed under a car or bus?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  6. SRD
    Moderator

    My contribution can be found here

    Posted 5 years ago #
  7. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Surely L&B's finest can furnish him with the "evidence" or at least figures of people who have been fined etc. Or even where they may be deploying those six bobbies at any one time.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  8. slowcoach
    Member

    Somebody did ask LBP about ASL with an FOI in March 2012:
    http://www.lbp.police.uk/information/freedom_of_information/disclosure_log/2012/march/advanced_stop_lines.aspx "I am unable to provide you with how many penalties have been issued since 2007 specifically for vehicles crossing the first stop line."

    In June someone asked how many red traffic light offences overall had been dealt with (3450 in L&B in 2011) http://www.lbp.police.uk/information/freedom_of_information/disclosure_log/2012/june/red_light_charges.aspx

    (While looking for these I saw another FOI that might be of interest: http://www.lbp.police.uk/information/freedom_of_information/disclosure_log/2012/july/cycle_helmets.aspx - it's not just about helmets)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  9. Cycle PC
    Member

    Hello,

    I can certainly verify that officers have been deployed specifically tasked with looking at matters relating to cycling in the city. ASL's were part of this, but were not the sole area of concern.

    Statistics are difficult to produce for ASL infringements as the offence of failing to obey a red traffic light includes vehicles which continue straight through a junction and those vehicles which fail to stop at first line.

    I am in the process of looking at the volume of fixed penalty tickets issued to cyclist, and am putting together a document which will hopefully be published in due course.

    Paul

    Posted 5 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    Aargh Paul if you'd only waited two minutes!!


    Don't stop in the ASL!

    Posted 5 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    And only a few minutes later -


    On patrol

    Posted 5 years ago #
  12. wee folding bike
    Member

    I thought you could get into trouble for photographing Peelers these days.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  13. gembo
    Member

    noticed the big electronic signs on way into edinburgh tonight were advising fixed penalties for bus lane infringements which is nice

    Posted 5 years ago #
  14. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot: Is that evidence though? Did you see the officer issue a fixed penalty notice? Or was it simply a caution? Cll Rose is looking for evidence of enforcement, not just "warnings in 'awareness campaigns' " as he puts it.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    True just a warning, though I think he was looking for evidence that they were doing anything.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  16. Dave
    Member

    For my part I've never heard of any driver recieving a fixed penalty for failing to stop at the first line... ever.

    I'd be surprised and pleased if it turned out I'm wrong though!

    Posted 5 years ago #
  17. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Police Traffic Wardens (not council fares and regulations enforcers) were arranging the removal of cars parked on the solid white line of the speedbumps outside Gylemuir Primary this lunchtime.

    I passed on my way to the post office and heading back same way 10 minutes later there seemed to be only 1 offender left. Either they turned up with a big lorry with some sort of tractor beam to rapidly get the cars onboard, or a lot of people nipped out of their houses and moved their cars around the corner.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  18. wee folding bike
    Member

    A friend was told off for being in the ASZ 16 years ago. The cops let her go on her way because she was from Islay and had never seen one before.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  19. gembo
    Member

    Is the crackdown back on? And cracking down? The wind blew me back to the scene of my ignominy last night, still only access for non-existent buses. I usually take different route through sighthill industrial estate now.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  20. slowcoach
    Member

    From Daily Telegraph 26/08/12 "Councils have lobbied the Government for the right to fine drivers who make illegal turns, encroach on yellow boxes or drive in bus and cycle lanes.

    Ministers indicated they were “sympathetic” to the plans ..."
    "Very little is currently done to stop the minority of inconsiderate drivers who block cycle lanes and bus lanes, pull up in cycle boxes at traffic lights and clog box junctions causing long tailbacks in rush hour."

    "Not only do these needless infringements cause frustration to responsible motorists, they can also put cyclists at risk by forcing them into busy traffic."
    Article is referring to England, outside of London (where Councils already have these powers?). Will Scottish Government follow this lead, or get Police to do the job (with adequate resources)?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  21. Roibeard
    Member

    @slowcoach - driving in bus lanes (during their hours of operation) has already been decriminalised in Edinburgh - I suspect, like yellow line parking offences, it will gradually trickle down from the big councils.

    Although it sounds dodgy that enforcing the law is taken out of police hands, they simply don't have the resources to prioritise traffic offences such as these (even if the Procurator Fiscal cared to prosecute!).

    Robert

    Posted 5 years ago #
  22. crowriver
    Member

    @wfb, I like that story. However I was always told "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  23. Min
    Member

    They had something on the BBC this morning about this. They had the usual sort of guy on trying to justify bad driving behaviour by trying to put the blame on pedestrians and cyclists. Yawn.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  24. crowriver
    Member

    In a year or two, when these offences are decriinalised and CEC has intalled a network of cameras to enforce ASLs and cycle lanes, I predict a backlash in the local press from angry residents who have totted up a grand's worth of fines. "But I've been driving this way for years and nobody told me it was against the law!" will come the cries. A number of cameras will be removed from the QBC in response to a self-righteous campaign in the local media...

    Posted 5 years ago #
  25. Sadly that's likely very true crowriver.

    "Although it sounds dodgy that enforcing the law is taken out of police hands, they simply don't have the resources to prioritise traffic offences such as these (even if the Procurator Fiscal cared to prosecute!)."

    With fixed penalty offences the PF isn't involved.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  26. bax
    Member

    Bax is cut up by Edinburgh Taxi Gadge who swerves into the ASL on red

    Bax (in tranquil mood): You did that on purpose, right?

    Taxi Gadge: You must be a really great guy

    Bax: Eh?

    Taxi Gadge: So you follow the highway code all the time?

    Bax: Mostly, yeah

    Taxi Gadge: I want to shake your hand, you are such a great guy

    Bax and Taxi Gadge shake hands warmly, yet sarcastically

    Bax: That nonsense is a 60 quid fine these days, mate

    Taxi Gadge: Oh you are such a great guy, I wish i was as great as you

    Taxi Gadge: What's the number one rule for cyclists?

    Bax: You tell me

    Taxi Gadge: Wear a bloody helmet !

    (To be repeated ad nauseum in Edinburgh forever)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  27. cb
    Member

    "Bax and Taxi Gadge shake hands warmly, yet sarcastically"

    <sniggering>Bax has taxi driver disease</sniggering>

    Posted 5 years ago #

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