Arellcat's comment on the "meanwhile in Telford" thread: "It's made me wonder if the rising tide against Franklin has come about because he has long proselytized vehicular cycling because of his own experience and the times in which he has lived: a boom time for car driving in urban planning, and survival methods in that environment. Even I don't actively enjoy cycling amongst cars and lorries and buses, but until we can have a real alternative we have to learn to cope. It ought to be no more than that: a panacea, not a goal."
brought the following somewhat off-topic rant from me:
"The thing is, I as a cyclist want both. I want to cycle on the road because for me it is the quickest and most convenient way to get from A to B. I fear being banned from the road because then I would have to go the long way round, I'd have to share space with pedestians and dogs, I'd have to keep slowing down for all these people who are even more vulnerable than I am. So I want to go on the road and make other vehicles slow down for me.
But, I also see that the 8 year old cycling to school, or the person returning to cycling who maybe doesn't have the fitness that I have, doesn't necessarily want these things. They're happy to slow down and avoid the dogs and what have you.
Yet, somehow there seems to be a sense that you can't be both an advocate of vehicular cycling and ask for good cycling facilities, and I'm not sure why this is. Or is it just me who feels like this? "
which brought a number of responses and a suggestion that a new thread was needed.
So here is a new thread and I've copied a few responses from the original thread (not including the diversion to the Forth Road Bridge...)
Dave: It's certainly a puzzle that people fear being banned from the roads. If cycling ever becomes popular enough that politicians commit to building segregated infrastructure on a wide scale, it will be far too popular to ban cycling on the roads.
However, it's also worth pointing out that road cycling (as a sport, carbon frames and shaved legs ahoy) is apparently significantly more popular in the Netherlands than it is here, and Hembrow at least believes that you can ride at a higher average speed on segregated paths than on the roads, in practice.
When going up to Roseburn from Leith I used to set a target of averaging 20mph (uphill). My average getting to the top of Leith Walk, on the other hand, is about 10mph, however much I ride in front of the buses ;-)
sallyhinch: I don't think the 8-year olds want to have to deal with dogs or go the long way round either. If we build stuff that's good enough, it should be good enough for both, and wide enough for the roadies to overtake the 8-year olds (for the average value of 8-year old) and direct enough that everyone uses them. It's only in the UK that we seem to feel that off-road automatically has to mean slow, circuitous and shared with pedestrians.
That said, I don't that means banning bikes from the roads either. After all we have fully segregated pedestrian facilities, aka pavements, but we don't have any jaywalking laws - pedestrians can walk where they choose. They just mostly don't choose to walk in the road when there's a good pavement to use instead. As, I suspect, most cyclists will choose to use decent segregated paths when they're made available.
PS: What slows you down is interaction with others - be it junctions, traffic lights, getting stuck behind buses. If the segregated paths are of a good standard (well laid and smooth, unlike so many cyclepaths like the A90 path, the front at Newhaven etc...) and well designed, these interactions will be limited so you maintain a good speed.
The Netherlands also has a lot of out of town segregated path, along which you often see roadies cycling. You'd be able to get a fair head of speed up along those.
Uberuce: I cite myself on many occasions but including one less than half an hour ago, as an example of that you mean. I habitually ride the Union towpath to the wee Tesco near my flat and bimble along surprising people by giving them lots of notice that I'd like to be pass once it's convenient, but can rarely be bothered with that once I've got to get the shopping back, so I use the road.
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