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What will get more people cycling?

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    The quote below, and the article it comes from, is clearly not about 'cycling'. For that I'm not even sure the research has really been done. To the extent that pilots and projects have been done - and evaluated - governments seem unwilling to accept the results and spend the money, or (for instance) restrict car use.

    When things do work - gradual infrastructure improvements (e.g. Copenhagen), mass cycle hire (Paris), comprehensive Safe Routes to School projects (Sustrans, various), there always seems to be concerns that it is 'value for money' or simply assertions 'but it wouldn't work in Edinburgh/UK/etc.

    To get more people cycling (which all governments say they want to do) will cost cash, and some changes of attitude - and perhaps legislation.

    "After decades of research, still no one knows if a smaller class, a new building, a simpler curriculum, a better-paid teacher or a bigger budget makes any difference."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/27/michael-gove-free-schools-admissions-policy

    (ALSO "An Edinburgh academic calculated that the academies were costing £5m for each "improved pupil", staggeringly bad value for money."    )

    The release of the Cycling Action Plan for Scotland is imminent. There are high hopes for the document. Will it have Scottish Government money attached?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  2. wee folding bike
    Member

    I expect Iain Grey will accuse someone of something anyway.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  3. gembo
    Member

    I heard much fall out over the Cycling Action Plan for Scotland as the Popular Front of Judea are not speaking to the Peoples' Front etc. And that the Plan is not delivering the goods. Could just be the voices in my head.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  4. Kim
    Member

    You want to get people cycling? Simple, stop frightening them, and remind them it is fun and anyone can do it!

    Which is more likely to get people cycling, this??

    Or this
    http://www.naden.de/blog/bbvideo-bbpress-video-plugin -->

    [+] Embed the video | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHL0w1uJIBk&feature=player_embedded" target="_blank">Video DownloadGet the Video Widget

    Posted 14 years ago #

  5. gembo
    Member

    I'm often quite scared when cycling on the streets of edinburgh, you have to keep your wits about you. It would be misleading to encourage people back to cycling by suggesting it is a breeze. I met a former colleague at Hermiston Gait last week and she told me two horror stories about being knocked off in hit and run situations and one horror story of a car crashing into her house. She did say she wanted to get back on her bike and I suggested that she start again on the water of leith path or recently tarmac-ed canal towpath. THere is an element of risk involved in cycling in Edinburgh (vast amount of horror stories on this forum as testament). I think the risk is worth it and if you are careful you reduce it but there are a lot of nutters out there driving cars [probably the cars that turn them bandy]. I agree the more people cycling should reduce the risk to all but I think we are misrepresenting the streets if we try to suggest it is just like Copehagen, Amsterdam or other continental parts where car drivers often respect cyclists. We have some drivers like that but many others who you sometimes feel have deliberately driven close to you (not just to avoid scratching their car on the other side but to actually give you a scare).

    Posted 14 years ago #

  6. Smudge
    Member

    As with most things there is no one answer, off road cycleways are a huge draw, witness the heavy use the canal towpath sees every morning from people who are clearly not what the general public would view as "cycling enthusiasts" (struggling to define the type there!).

    Equally, particularly as the perhaps less committed cycle commuters / general transport cyclists start to use roads more there needs to be enforcement of the law. If a motor vehicle driver drives dangerously or in a wilfully intimidating manner then they need to be pursued and if necessary prosecuted for it.
    As private citizens it is generally difficult for us to do this, however it is possible, indeed some would say our responsibility to report such behaviour if we see it, and that allows the Police the opportunity to act. After all, if you saw someone threatening another person on the street with a knife I would imagine most of us would report it, why then do we shake our heads, say "tsk, another one" and carry on when we see someone (or are ourselves) threatened by someone with half a ton of metal (which has convenient identification numbers at both ends for just such an eventuality!).

    Until the antisocial minority realise they are antisocial and may be brought to book for their actions, they will continue to misbehave and cycling in our cities will continue to be sometimes frightening. Although increasing numbers of cyclists reduces the problem, the only way to cure it imho is enforcement, so report them! Especially you chaps and chapesses with camera evidence, send it to the Police with a polite letter, it can do no harm and you may be surprised at the response ;-)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  7. Dave
    Member

    As we've ruled out safety issues in other recent threads, I think the simplest way to understand what other barriers exist would be to survey people who

    a) have spent some time cycling regularly, recently, but
    b) have given it up

    You then throw away all the fear-based responses and what remains (no bike storage, no showers, etc) should tell you what to work on.

    The problem with many campaigns is they try to address what people who don't cycle say they want, which isn't necessarily what will stop them cycling once they start - or they are asking people who ride already, which is just as bad (because those people are being asked about barriers they've already overcome).

    Posted 14 years ago #

  8. Dave
    Member

    PS. I think the driver behaviour issue is fundamentally un-addressable. When I drive my car I get exactly the same aggro that I do on my bike - people cutting in and out, moving without indicating, tailgating and beeping when they want to go faster, I watch them ranting in the mirror, shouting and gesturing...

    The reason bike safety is a red herring is not because it is safe, but that it is just the same as when you drive. It's more dangerous when you're exposed on a bike, of course, but we're never going to stop people pulling out in front when they're happy to do it to your car (or bus!) just the same.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  9. Smudge
    Member

    @Dave Agreed, the general poor driving is not about to change, I'm thinking more of the deliberate attempts to frighten/intimidate which some drivers think an acceptable way to behave towards anyone on a bicycle. They don't do it to me in my car/on my motorbike, why am I a target on a cycle?
    Your survey target group are ideal, I just don't know how they could be identified in order to survey them :-/

    Posted 14 years ago #

  10. steveo
    Member

    What will get more people cycling?

    When the balance of convenience vs cost vs motivation sways from the car, won't happen before that. Nothing will "get" people to ditch the car some may choose to and the point where the bike becomes less hassle or more likely the car become too expensive is different for every one.

    When you boil away all the reasons people give for not wanting to cycle what you have at the bottom is a little salt of truth, its a simple 3 chain molecule named "can't be arsed" and that was my underlying reasoning for about 8 years (I call this my dark time).

    My old mountain bike was usually in my spare room but i'd convinced my self it needed too much work and i had neither the time nor the money to do it or i'd think i was too unfit or there wasn't a shower at the office. One day i did try to take the bike and i was too unfit i pushed too hard and ended up walking part of it (from Drum Brae to Gorgie downhill and hardly a marathon) but that put the idea right back out the window. After i couldn't get in to my kilt for a wedding a few years later i started using that "broken" bike on the turbo for 20/30 mins a few days a week before work a few months later work brought in the cycle scheme and at the same time LRT put there prices up twice in a couple of months i figured that was the way the wind was blowing and got a decent bike from the cycle scheme and with in few months it was habit to take the bike instead of the bus.

    Just recently i "fixed" that old mountain bike by indexing the gears and setting the brakes up again, that's all it needed. A few weeks on the turbo brought my fitness up to a point where i was comfortable on the road and LRT haven't put there fares up again, though my current work does have showers. Moral of the story there was nothing insurmountable in my excuse bag but having thought it through the reason was i couldn't be bothered the car/bus was easier. I doubt i'm that abnormal tbh and doubt that my experience is unique.

    /essay

    Posted 14 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    @steveo

    GREAT story

    And I'm sure quite common - but seldom heard about.

    There will be many more people with bikes in the spare room.

    Maybe more should plan to get married in a kilt/tight dress.

    I believe one way to encourage more people to cycle is for people like you to tell people stories like that.

    On here is a start. But most readers already cycle. Have you told friends/work colleagues?

    Did it influence them?

    If everyone who cycles persuaded/helped one person a year cycling would be 'normal' in 6 years (do the math).

    Posted 14 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

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    Not sure how many people will tick the last two -

    Posted 14 years ago #

  13. wee folding bike
    Member

    In the past I had the odd dose of can't be arse. At 0600 hrs in the middle of the winter when you can hear it raining out in the dark and you know you have 19 miles to travel to work it did used sound like a nice idea to use an '89 240GL and have another half hour in bed.

    A busted water pump and no inclination to mend it dealt with that. The 240 has gone to a rest home now. That was a wee bit sad because either me or my dad had owned a Volvo 240 for an unbroken 29 years at that point.

    But anyway that took away the option so I now have to get up and ride my bike.

    When I suggested cycling more on the old Herald forums I always got the too wet, too hilly, too windy responses. Despite not being Usaine Bolt, Lance Armstrong or Daly Thompson I seem to manage just fine.

    I never got to the point of suggesting that they could just get their lardy backsides out of their daft jeeps but I might have been thinking it.

    I haven't proselytised people but when I worked in London there were people who started cycling and it could have been because they noticed how fast, cheap and relatively pleasant it was.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  14. Kim
    Member

    I cycled out to the farmers market today and guess what, no one tried to run me over or cut me up. Yes was all have our horror stories, the nutters who pass to close just try and frighten us, but not all or even most of the time. For those who are not confident in traffic, getting training can really help. Learning from other how to avoid getting into a dangerous situation, rather learning the hard way from experience.

    Cycling can be a really positive thing. Tells talk it up, instead of talking it down.

    Oh and does anyone think that initiatives like this one are a good idea? ;-)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  15. recombodna
    Member

    Cycle paths that are seperate from the traffic would be a big bonus. I know a lot of folk that are just to scared to cycle in traffic. can't be arsed is a big part of it as well though. I gave up cycling for about 7 years after a 4 year stint as a bike courier. I'd just had enough of the arseholes on the road the weather the hills the constantly repairing my poor ailing bike. I got a job with a company van and fuel card and kept warm and listened to radio 2 for a few years but once a cyclist always a cyclist I rekon and the bike found me again.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  16. gembo
    Member

    there are some brave souls on this forum who are new to cycling, some who never gave up but I figure the majority cycled, gave up then came back. OUr views are therefore different to people who have never cycled. A great deal of our chatter would I feel strike the new cyclist as at best recondite.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  17. wee folding bike
    Member

    Recondite. One of my favourite words.

    H G Wells uses it at the start of the Time Machine.

    The Time Traveller (for so it will be convenient to speak of him)
    was expounding a recondite matter to us. His grey eyes shone and
    twinkled, and his usually pale face was flushed and animated.

    Text available here:

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/35/35.txt

    For most cycling things Sheldon Brown makes it clear and Jobst Brandt takes it to the edge.

    The cycling list I see most of is to do with Bromptons. Unlike a grouchy old UNIX Beard the locals are quite happy to explain the same old stuff to n00bs without shouting RTFM all the time.

    Sometimes I reference the manual but I always include the page number and URL to download it from Brompton. One thing which seems to worry people is removing the back wheel (and then putting it back on). The manual has a good description of how to do this. It's on page 20 of the most recent edition.

    I don't know if I qualify as a UNIX Beard anymore since I went Alternate Spock.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  18. gembo
    Member

    In 1987 when I was half the age I am now I travelled to the strange reserved metropolis of Edinburgh to study in a dept. called Cognitive Science. Here I encountered a UNIX Beard for the first time. He wore a t-shirt with the letters RTFM on it. I said what does that mean? He shouted in frustration at me. Soon RTFM will appear in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable.

    HG Wells has a cycling hero, Mr Hoopdriver of course

    http://www.experienceplus.com/reading_room/books/the-wheels-of-chance-a-bicycling-idyll-by-h.g.-wells.html

    Posted 14 years ago #

  19. Min
    Member

    I think that, strangely, that tangent has presented a quotation that probably sums up everything in this thread thus far.

    "Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live.”

    Well it sums up what I think anyway.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  20. LaidBack
    Member

    http://citycycling.co.uk/issue59/undivided1.html

    Good article here by a 'forumer' (not me).

    "in encouraging more people to ride a bicycle instead of driving a car, we have to show that riding a bicycle is the normal thing to do. That needs:

      Making riding a bike ordinary, without lots of special aspects like yellow jackets and helmets and lycra.

      Making riding a bike ordinary, but tailoring it to the specific cityscape.

      Making riding a bike ordinary, and less of an urban competition.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  21. Aphid
    Member

    Making biking ordinary is fine, but the biggest increase in cycling in London occured after 7/7 and when fuel prices shot up. In other words, when the alternatives were more expensive/seen as more dangerous.

    Fiddling with the look/image strikes [me] as a bit of fiddling at the edges. Risk, weather, hills, stuff to carry, distance, fitness are all negatives for people I know, whilst most of them are positives for me. Tricky.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  22. gembo
    Member

    aphid - nice point on the macroeconomics of cycling. City of Edinburgh pays employees 25p per mile to cycle (not the first last journeys because of tax issues or something, but the inbetween journeys). Scottish Govt. does the same but pays 20p per mile. So one theory would be more businesses paying employees to cycle would encourage more cycling?

    On the look front I was chatting to lovely chap in the Pentlands the other day. He had cycling shorts - lycra with pad on his bottom half and a dress shirt on his top half. (I think this was midge related, will ask next time I see him). Interesting look.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  23. wee folding bike
    Member

    Hmmmm... I could try to sneak that look past the memsahib.

    She reacts badly to 7 up steel toe Docs and shorts so what would a Jon Pertwee shirt and lycra do?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  24. gembo
    Member

    folds - she might like it, the chap in the pentlands hadn't pushed the tail of the shirt so much. I once went to a Shakespearean themed fancy dress party as Puck with a Full Jon Pertwee, lycra shorts and a lot of twigs in my hair

    On the economics - if TescAsda sold bikes for 5p would that get more people cycling?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  25. wee folding bike
    Member

    Price isn't usually an excuse I hear. It's too wet, too hilly, too cold.

    Of course many people react with surprise when they hear how much people will pay for a nice bike. How can it be better than the one they got in Asda for £70?

    For some reason I've been thinking about Alexander Dumas today.

    All FOUR ONE keeps coming back to me.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  26. cb
    Member

    I think the congestion charge had a pretty big effect of cyclist numbers in London.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  27. gembo
    Member

    nice hypotheis cb - again linked to cash.

    Alexander Dumas - maybe talk of dress shirts?

    Two tins of polish are walking down the street, which one is the musketeer?

    The Dark Tan yin (D'Artangnan)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  28. Kim
    Member

    Spending £3.9 million in investment cash? Can Cycling Scotland make it work, or will it just be just another wasted opportunity?

    Posted 14 years ago #

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