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The War on Britain's Roads premieres Wednesday 5th December, 9pm BBC one

(147 posts)

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  1. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "I wonder how much in some drivers' minds (subconsciously at least) there is the thought that 'cyclists only need a small amount of space to get through traffic, so I only need to leave them a small amount to pass safely'"

    I've often wondered the same thing. I'll filter through gaps that are much much smaller than I'm happy having a car pass me by. I think there's a difference in that the differential speed is much lower, and the capacity for harm so much lower (I could scratch paintwork; they could kill me), but I cna see how me going throug a small gap would equate in many minds to that being the amount of space a cyclist needs.

    Of course I wish the Highway Code would be more explicit on this and actually just say leave a 3 feet gap or something like that.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  2. SRD
    Moderator

    yes, i thought a couple of times that the narrator could have pointed out that drivers were not aware of/following highway code.

    I also thought gareth was completely okay. not as photogenic as our magnatom, but as he said, if the taxi was close enough for him to touch, then it was too close.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  3. stiltskin
    Member

    I didn't see it but it is interesting how people come over on TV. The cyclist who seems to come across so badly posts on a number of forums as Gaz & seems to be a thoroughly sensible, decent sort of bloke.. It just shows how much distortion ( deliberate or otherwise) occurs when you see things on a screen.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  4. SRD
    Moderator

    @stiltskin, I thought he was fine. not a very flattering interview post thoough. would have been better sitting in a pub, naturally lit etc. this was head and shoulders against black. he didn't come across as the coolest kid ever. but not obnoxious or anything.

    they should get some footage of me when a driver does something stupid and i've got kids on the bike....

    Posted 12 years ago #

  5. steveo
    Member

    Of course I wish the Highway Code would be more explicit on this and actually just say leave a 3 feet gap or something like that.

    One foot for ever 10mph? That would show why we need little space filtering and when they're passing at high speed we need a little more safety room. Would give us the whole lane on A roads.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "One foot for ever 10mph?"

    That's an interesting idea!

    Of course it depends on motorists being able to estimate cycle speeds...

    Posted 12 years ago #

  7. splitshift
    Member

    i watched it, all it showed was that people are generally pretty horrible to each other .Everyone is right and NO ONE ever thinks that they did wrong.
    just be carefull.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  8. Kirst
    Member

    That taxi driver who was making a fuss about having his cab slapped was saying "I was nowhere near you." Nobody pointed out that if he was close enough to have his cab slapped, he was too close.

    That clip of magnatom on the roundabout with the tanker makes me feel sick every time I see it.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  9. Roibeard
    Member

    @chdot - "One foot for ever 10mph?"

    Of course it depends on motorists being able to estimate cycle speeds...

    I think it's one foot for every 10 mph of vehicle speed, not differential - one would hope drivers are capable of awareness of their own speed. And if not, a glance down should inform them!

    Robert

    Posted 12 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "
    scotbot (@scotbot)

    06/12/2012 11:06

    @CyclingEdin Motorists don't pay attention to their speedos, so how can we expect them to guesstimate passing distances? @HighwayCodeGB

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #

  11. LaidBack
    Member

    ".....cyclists only need a small amount of space to get through traffic, so I only need to leave them a small amount to pass safely'"

    I regularly filter up past Missoni in the narrow bike lane now painted there at last (yes it does work sometimes). I'm sure my action is considered dangerous even though the lane is designed to allow me to filter closer to cars than I'd like them to pass me.

    Programme would put me off cycling in London (even though I have in past). Really more about London with Magnatom's Glasgow sequence tacked on so they could re-title in the classic BBC way. One section was a police pursuit of a motorbike rider on a bike ... just .. because...

    Despite a small fortune having being spent on London's bike lanes the programme said nothing about why they don't work as well as they should. No explanation was given to the role painted roads play in this!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Cllr. Andrew D Burns (@AndrewDBurns)
    05/12/2012 23:06
    Just not sure of the real point being made earlier this evening: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01p7q2l ... depressingly sensationalist, with no solutions?

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #

  13. mgj
    Member

    Glad to see my suggestion of a safe overtaking distance to go into the HC is gaining traction, at least on here, as a 3 feet plus a foot for every 10mph.

    Still waiting for someone to point me to a reference in the HC for the legality of filtering on the left of a lane though (as opposed to the section warning drivers to look out for filtering bikes; a section warning pedestrians to look out for cars going through red lights would not make going through a red light legal).

    Cold and windy on the bike today; certainly wasnt a hot war this morning.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  14. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    mgj, I wrote a piece on left-hand filtering ages ago that I'll try and dig out. There is, of course, the 'warning to look for bikes' bit in there, but it's backed up by 2 or 3 other nuances - and of course you're comment on the pedestrians to look out for cars going through red is slightly apples and pears because the red lights thing IS dealt with specifically, so either interpretation is possible.

    ie.

    You: If there was a warning for pedstrians to look out for cars going through red it wouldn't make going through red legal.

    Me: There is a specific section saying that going through a red is illegal, but not a specific section saying left-filtering is illegal, so it must be legal.

    But that's the problem with the Highway Code, many of the points are a bit fluffy and uncertain (like the distance to pass cyclists - so many places, including certain states in the US, have passed laws requiring a 3ft passing distance, but the UK still muddles along with 'as much space as you would give a car' which in many peoples' mind might well be a lot less than 3ft).

    Posted 12 years ago #

  15. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Ah, as a for instance other tacit approval, rule 72:

    "Do not ride on the inside of vehicles signalling or slowing down to turn left." Rather than 'do not ride on the inside of vehicles' (and it's 'do not' rather than 'must not' anyway, so has no legislative basis and is merely good practice).

    Posted 12 years ago #

  16. wingpig
    Member

    'As much space as you would give a car' oft-interpreted as "the minimal lateral separation between the tips of the adjacent wing mirrors of two close-side-by-side cars", rather than "pretend that the cyclist is in the middle of a car-sized area of road and IMPINGE NOT upon the borders thereof". It would only take a little diagram in the HC to make it slightly less easy to misinterpret...

    +-------+
    |.......|
    |...|...|
    |..-+-..|
    |..~#~..|
    |...|...|
    |.......|
    +-------+

    Posted 12 years ago #

  17. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Just one more thing while I think of it, if filtering on the left was illegal then 99% of cyclelanes will be impossible to use. The law on those cyclelanes doesn't say, "You are allowed to pass on the left only when in a cyclelane", but rather says nothing at all on the subject.

    And it doesn't create an additional lane on the road - only motorised lanes count as 'lanes' (where drivers are allowed to filter on the left IF the right hand lane is stationary - which would often be the get-out for left hand filtering, but that one can't be used because it's not technically a 'lane').

    Posted 12 years ago #

  18. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    That certainly would help wingpig - since I'd always interpreted that section as 'think how much of a space you'd leave to the right hand side of the car you're passing, okay, so you can pass a cyclist giving the same amount of space to the edge of his handlebars'.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  19. mgj
    Member

    But the HC is explicit that you must overtake traffic on the right unless it is a stationary queue on a multi-lane road in which case a lane on the left can overtake a lane on the right (which is presumably the point of bike lanes). The HC is silent on overtaking in a lane though, mostly becuase lanes are not wide enough for two cars (normally) and the framers of the HC havent thought that bit through.

    Is "filtering" somehow different from overtaking?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  20. Morningsider
    Member

    mgj - filtering on the left isn't an offence, which is probably why it isn't menioned in the Highway Code - its far easier to list what you aren't allowed to do than what you are.

    There may be circumstances where left hand filtering could be considered "careless or inconsiderate" or even "dangerous" cycling, which are offences, which should cover any outrageously bad behaviour. Difficult to see left hand filtering ever falling into these categories in real life - but in theory it is covered.

    EDIT - the Highway Code does consider flitering and overtaking to be two different things. Advice to drivers states :

    "211
    It is often difficult to see motorcyclists and cyclists, especially when they are coming up from behind, coming out of junctions, at roundabouts, overtaking you or filtering through traffic"

    Posted 12 years ago #

  21. Dave
    Member

    Moreso, the official guidelines on the length of a feeder lane for an advanced stop area are that it should be at least as long as the expected queues.

    Why on earth the government would mandate* making cycle lanes as long as queues of traffic if it was intended to be against the law to use them is anyone's guess.

    Simpler to assume they build the lane long enough to allow cyclists to ride to the front because they want cyclists to be able to ride to the front, IMO.

    * at least in theory!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    "the official guidelines on the length of a feeder lane for an advanced stop area are that it should be at least as long as the expected queues"

    Really??

    So most aren't 'officially' long enough - most not as long as a single vehicle!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  23. Focus
    Member

    Thanks to chdot for sorting out my long-running problem getting my registration to work. Now I can finally join in!

    So, what to make of last night's programme? I found myself going from anger to shock to horror and sadness and changing throughout. I guess the producers got what they wanted from me then.

    But I think it did very little to address the problem properly because people were probably still seeing red when they needed to be considering the sobering points being made. In the discussion I've been following elsewhere, very little mention has been made of the poor mother who lost her daughter but that is ultimately the biggest issue of the whole night - people are losing their lives needlessly.

    Without a civilised studio debate on the points raised in the programme we're left with a lot of angry people who still don't really understand each other properly. I would have liked to have seen the taxi driver and Gareth (aka Cyclegaz, aka Silly Cyclists) actually discuss their argument to try to see eye to eye, something most of us who face confrontation never get to do following an incident - we either go our separate ways or have an argument in the street.

    The Alley Cat footage aside, most of the video was a fair reflection of what goes on but I just can't help thinking that it hasn't done much to bring the 2 sides together - they are still "2 sides" when they should be one entity, sharing the road with care for each other.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  24. DaveC
    Member

    @chdot, depends on how they measure the length of the queuing traffic, or rather when they measure the length of queuing traffic. For instance, I heard recently on the news that the Gov't measure capacity of NHS beds at midnight! Now I don't work or have any experience of NHS bed capacity at midnight, but compare to queue length, and if they measure them in non peak times, which is when most of us cycle commute, and you start to see why they appear to (excuse the pun) fall short.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  25. mgj
    Member

    @Morningsider; how is it not overtaking ?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    Welcome Focus.

    Glad you persisted.

    In cases like this, password emails usually end up in the junk bin.

    You seem to have suffered from an excessively 'efficient' HotMail spam filter.

    Note for others - only overcome by using a non HotMail alternative.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  27. minus six
    Member

    all it showed was that people are generally pretty horrible to each other

    When the officials say that "we're not starting from the same place as Holland", this is actually what they mean, whether they know it or not.

    UK culture is mean as a rat's ass.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  28. crowriver
    Member

    mgj: Technically left hand filtering is undertaking. Overtaking is on the right (in this country anyway).

    I tend to overtake rather than undertake, unless there is a cycle lane. Better chance the drivers can see you in their wing mirrors...

    Posted 12 years ago #

  29. Morningsider
    Member

    mgj - my understanding is that overtaking refers to passing another moving vehicle while filtering is passing through stationary traffic. There are no statutory definitions of "overtaking" or "filtering", so it is open to interpretation as to what any particular manouvre actually is. I know it seems pedantic, but the fact that the Highway Code lists them as two seperate actions means that they are.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  30. mgj
    Member

    @crowriver; I think that is my point, since the HC is not silent on undertaking

    Posted 12 years ago #

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