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Lorry drivers protest over speed restrictions

(32 posts)
  • Started 12 years ago by Snowy
  • Latest reply from splitshift

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  1. Snowy
    Member

    http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/Lorry-drivers-protest-over-speed-restrictions-03122012.htm

    Well, I'm no physicist, but I do recall that the stopping distance of a car is about 48% further when travelling at 50mph compared to 40mph.

    Probably because the equation about momentum involves a square of the speed. But, brakes can only scrub off a set amount of energy (speed) per second.

    There are indeed accidents caused by crazy overtaking. Would dualling the road solve that? Plenty debate there.

    Driver training and education has a very important role here - probably the most important.

    But to argue that speed limits should keep rising until they are in step with each other is a game of almost endless escalation. And, crucially, it's ignoring the fact that the laws of physics are not going be neatly waived to fit in with tight delivery deadlines.

    The thought of the really big lorries taking almost 50% longer to stop is not an attractive one.

    Give it time, and exactly the same argument will be trotted out to suggest the large HGV limit should go from 50mph to 60mph.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. Hmmm, some interesting contracdictory lines in that piece. For instance:

    "Conor McKenna, of Columba Road, Dalneigh, is urging lorry drivers to rigidly stick to the 40mph limit on A class roads such as the A9 as part of a week long campaign which started today" suggests quite strongly that lorry drivers don't currently stick to 40mph.

    Whereas "The 28-year-old, who works for DPS Haulage in Dingwall, said the 40mph speed limit for single carriageways frustrated other drivers and also caused drivers to make dangerous overtaking manoeuvres" suggests that lorry drivers do stick to the 40mph limit (which 'forces' drivers to overtake stupidly).

    Surely if they all stuck to 40 already then he wouldn't have to ask drivers to stick to it rigidly; bvut if they don't already stick rigidly to 40mph then the trucks aren't driving at 40mph which apparently causes the frustration...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. Where's Splitshift? Be good to have a lorry driver's view (and I'll bet there are some good tales of car drivers overtaking really really badly).

    I have to admit, I wasn't actually aware that the speed limit for trucks on single carriageways was 40mph!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Anyone who thinks that raising speed limits is anything but a catastrophe waiting to happen should be forced to sit through an hour of those "Driving in Russia" compilations on youtube (I imagine that there are so many in-car "helmetcams" in Russia due to the appalling driving standards and apparently complete disregard for the law and other road users)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. Min
    Member

    I really can't see that a driver who would rather kill someone than wait patiently behind a lorry at 40mph is going to wait patiently behind a lorry at 50mph?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. ARobComp
    Member

    I think the idea that less people would overtake if the lorries were going at 45/50mph is a load of bull. All that will happen is that people will overtake going 60-70 rather than the 50-60 they currently overtake at.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. fimm
    Member

    If you do 60 up the A9 1) you get a big queue behind you and 2) you get the odd dodgy overtake...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. Klaxon
    Member

    > If you do 60 up the A9 1) you get a big queue behind you and 2) you get the odd dodgy overtake...

    I'm happy to always sit at 60 on the A9. Less variance in journey time because you catch up less lorries to start with. It's if you go quicker and start catching others doing 60 that you suddenly become the one doing the dodgy overtakes.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    So let me get this right: their 'protest' involves sticking rigidly to the existing speed limit?

    Great, just carry on with the protest indefinitely guys!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    Scottish Labour transport man says (BBC TV news) it's "win win" to increase limits.

    Now policeman on (separate item) saying drivers need to slow down in current weather conditions...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. Bhachgen
    Member

    If the trucks stick to 40mph it could actually reduce "dangerous" overtaking moves as there will be stretches where it would be impossible to safely overtake a vehicle travelling at 50mph+ but where there will be enough space to overtake a vehicle travelling at 40mph.

    If all the truckers on the A9 actually follow through with their planned protest they may actually find themselves getting unexpected positive feedback on it from drivers of faster vehicles for this very reason.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. Smudge
    Member

    To be fair, and speaking from the biased position of a sometime LGV driver, the speed limits for heavies are archaic.
    For those unfamiliar, it's 30 in a built up area, 40 on single carriageways, 50 on dual carriageways and 60 on motorways (though all modern trucks have a 56mph limiter fitted). (Strangely a coach full of people is allowed to travel at 30, 50, 60 and 70?!?(And though most seem unaware these limits also apply to transit vans and similar..)

    These limits were set way back in the days of drum brakes and underpowered trucks, on single carriageways and on single and dual carriageways they are, to be honest, routinely ignored by the majority the majority and a blind eye is turned by all the police I've encountered. After all, a modern wagon with up to date abs, good suspension, brakes built for 100ton not 40 will more than likely outstop the majority of cars (keep this in mind when following a truck!)
    Harmonising limits would make sense, I'd personally like to see the coach limits brought in line. A protest as described in the thread above would just highlight an obsolete law to many drivers who are currently completely unaware why the odd truck is "only" doing 40mph on an open 60mph road.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. Smudge
    Member

    Ref stupid overtakes, my experience is that at 50+ the odd person makes a stupid overtake, most will wait for a sensible gap, at 40mph the muppets get frustrated (and under pressure from those behind them) and the horrifying overtakes come thick and fast :-(

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. That's interesting Smudge (always assumed the greater mass wouldn't have been overcome by better brakes - obviously knew they had better brakes, but didn't realise they were that good). Is there a greater jackknife possibility at higher speeds and under heavy braking?

    On the news last night the reporter finished the piece with: "And many lorry drivers say that they drive faster than the speed limit in order to help with the flow of traffic." No challenge to that comment at all. Hands up who thinks that's why people break the limit.... No.... No-one?

    As Crowriver says, long may the protest continue! And I think Mr Bhachgen is right as well about the relative safety of passing at different speeds.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. Smudge
    Member

    In a straight line, you can pretty much stand on the anchors, when turning, esp heavily loaded is where the potential jacknife becomes a really scary possibility, esp in icy/slippy conditions.
    Speed isn't especially a factor (in my experience) in the risk of jacknife, it's just something you're aware of whenever you need to brake in a turn.
    Yes there is greater mass, but the weight is relatively low and is also pushing the tyres into the ground, increasing their grip. Obv condition dependent but on a dry day the old ERF EC10 I used to drive would stop like it had hit a wall (and when empty would easily out-accelerate children in XR2i's etc!)

    I'll be glad to be proven wrong, and it's a nice idea that a greater speed differential would allow safer overtakes, but as I say my experience of doing 40 on roads like the A1 and A9 is that the overtakes become really frighteningly dangerous as bad drivers get frustrated and take bigger and bigger risks :-(

    Much like cars passing bicycles...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. Min
    Member

    That rather surprises me but I guess things are different at the actual coal face!

    So is 50 a sensible speed limit do you think?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. This is what I like about CCE - you tend to get someone who really knows what they're talking about no matter what the topic. And, if posited sensibly and with that knowledge and without trying to prove a point, you genuinely can change people's opinions, or get them questioning wqhat they initially believed.

    Though I still don't like some of the reporting on this particular action being taken.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. Smudge
    Member

    So is 50 a sensible speed limit do you think?
    Hmmm, that's a tough one, if I knew the answer to that I'd be a transport planner or a politician!

    In my experience, (caveat, sample of 1), most heavies are running on open A roads between about 50 and 56 (on the limiter). This is of course amongst light traffic that is trying to do 55-60mph legally.
    For all the difference 6mph would make I would be tempted to just let them run at 56... but I have no idea whether that would affect accident/injury rates or not :-s My suspicion is that it will make no practical difference due to the proportion who are doing that anyway.

    Were you to advocate a blanket 50mph limit on A roads for all vehicles, that creates a lot of other factors, in that case, I would say 50mph max for all vehicles would make perfect sense, certainly 40 for trucks and 50 for the rest would be a nonsense.

    To spread the thread a little further for a moment, I remember watching a programme where a Swedish (iirc, somewhere cold with a good safety record anyway!!) safety expert was asked to look at UK single carriageway A roads, he was horrified that the two lanes weren't barrier segregated, (armco or fences like the central reservation on a motorway) when asked whether that would cause frustration by preventing people from overtaking his attitude was basically "why would they be frustrated?" pointing out that it completely removes head-on crashes...

    It would be a much cheaper and more certain way of making the A9 safer for instance, don't bother spending billions dualling it, just put a fence down the middle and let everything do 50mph.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. Min
    Member

    if I knew the answer to that I'd be a transport planner or a politician!

    Haha, if you knew the answers to transport questions, you really wouldn't be! ;-)

    For all the difference 6mph would make I would be tempted to just let them run at 56... but I have no idea whether that would affect accident/injury rates or not :-s My suspicion is that it will make no practical difference due to the proportion who are doing that anyway.

    Yes, it would be hard to tell without actually trying it. Of course, what might happen is that trucks that are now travelling at 56mph would have their limiters put up and travel at 66mph instead. But I think perhaps a trial period might tell.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. Smudge
    Member

    @Min, shouldn't happen as they are legally forced to have the 56 limiters and the govt I doubt would see it as a vote grabber to raise it.

    I look forward with little hope to the mandatory fitment of 70mph limiters* to all new cars. There is no excuse not to outside the daily wail or top gear willy waving!

    *as a precursor to the introduction of limiters linked to gps which will restrict the vehicle to the local speed limit...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. "... as a precursor to the introduction of limiters linked to gps which will restrict the vehicle to the local speed limit..."

    This idea was actually featured on Top Gear about 15 years ago. The technology has existed for aaaaaaaages, but definitely no will to implement something like that (and difficult to do for one country on its own unless government approved identikit cars were produced). I remember at the time the safety argument was along the lines of "For overtaking safely sometimes you have to go faster so you're exposed for a shorter length of time". Even at that time, when I wasn't as much of a cyclist, I thought to myself "If you need to break the speed limit to get past safely then you shouldn't be overtaking...."

    For a while as well you'd end up with a disparity between new cars fitted with it, and old cars (which I doubt would be compelled to retrofit). You'd probably see the secondhand market boom as people wanted to buy cars that can go faster than the mandated limit.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. cc
    Member

    It could easily be strongly encouraged by means of insurance premiums. Imagine if premiums doubled or tripled for non-controlled cars.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. Smudge
    Member

    @WC yup, the same reasons excuses were used for a long time about 70mph limiters, now they are seen fitted to more and more fleet vehicles.
    If politicians were remotely serious about reducing the carnage on our roads the legislation would be getting forced through now to make them mandatory.

    Disparity would be no great problem, it was there for a while (and still is to an extent) when they froze the rolling VED exemption on older cars. It would soon become and insignificant number of unrestricted vehicles, and in a large number of restricted vehicles they would either be forced to follow suit and moderate speed or they would stick out like a sore thumb.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. slowcoach
    Member

    See Scotland's Road Safety Framework from 2009 - "The framework proposes that high tech devices which restrict the speed of a vehicle using an onboard computer to ensure that the limit cannot be exceeded be piloted to test their effectiveness in Scotland."

    and the pilot study now underway for young drivers at work.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. mgj
    Member

    I do wish they would update that VED exemption, for purely selfish reasons, as my DS is 6 months too young to qualify. It does have a speedometer with braking distances in feet on it though (good tyres, in the dry). 250 feet for 60 mph IIRC

    Posted 12 years ago #
  26. Smudge
    Member

    @Slowcoach, ref the pilot study, the MoD for instance has these fitted across their civilian vehicle fleet, regardless of driver age! Speeding or erratic driving gets automatically flagged up to fleet managers and then it comes back down the chain to the drivers.

    Ok for commercial fleets and rapidly being adopted by many due to the financial benefits, doesn't do anything about private drivers and the cowboys unfortunately.

    I have been told that all L&B Police cars have dataloggers fitted which will, in the event of a crash, save the data for a period up to the impact, eg, speed, throttle use, lights on/off etc etc.

    All sorts of technology is there, it just needs an incentive for it to be applied.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  27. splitshift
    Member

    ok, smudge has dealt with most issues here already,I know tha most modern lorries are capable of stopping very quickly, and yes out accelerating a car while in an artic can cause some amusement,speed limits are in place, for good, if old reasons. My company does not want to loose its operators licence by asking drivers to break the law , by speeding , so we generally travel at just on , or very slightly over the 40 limit. We can run fixed cameras at 43/44 and not trip them.BUT, if you encounter a mobile van camera , there is no such margin .Imagine the senario,you come barreling over the drumochter summit, into the single lane section, (40 mph in an artic ) your doing 50,there is a an accident ahead, you spot it at the last minute, stand on the anchors and still run over the top of mrs whatsit in her fiesta.Would a ten mph lower speed have saved all ?I dont know, but i sure dont want to spend the rest of my life wondering ! I always just pull into the many laybys on the A9,some of which are almost run through , additional lanes .ABS brakes, i am convinced its a major......... you can steer while standing on the brakes but they actually take longer to stop.Most lorries also have a thing known generally as active suspension programmes which take over the control of brakes distribution while the vehicle is steering, all linked to suspension loading , which can also lenghthen stopping distances.The whole, we want to make the A9 a safer place for car drivers is frankly rubbish , the independant truckers are cutting one anothers throats for rates, if they can travel the A9, from central to inverness, legally , on the limit, then they can cover more distance, with less cost.Its all about profit. I doubt that any drivers will sit on the A9 at 40 as a protest ! Ive seen only one protest where lots of small and independant firms were protesting at the cost of fuel, they held up the M9 etc for a few hours, they travelled in convoy to somewhere for a mass meeting ! all very socialist worker and lets give the small business people a chance !But they all had loads on,they were still making money, they wernt quite in thesamer league as the Jarrow marchers !I know many owner drivers and its not something I fancy, £100 000 for a unit and trailer, £1000 to fill up on fuell, £350 a tyre,up to 20 of them ,£1200 road tax, insurance, wages, maintenance costs, (recent £5000 for a clutch in France !) bonds for overseas, living like a gypsy in a metal box, never seeing your family,eating rubbish constantly,speed cameras on every street and now people want to make them go faster ! Give me the supermarket job any day, very little hassle, just dont bend it, dont break it and dont bring the company into disrepute , oh and home every night, good reliable wages and conditions. Yep, give me 40mph and plenty of laybys and youll get to inverness , no problem. Oh and the single carraigway sections are actually brocken by duall carraigeway sections where the cars can pass at speeds that the artics cant actually acheive !
    Yes ive seen many incredible overtakes by the ever important car drivers out there, but not just the A9, they are evreywhere !
    If my ankle ever gets better , i might even get back to driving soon !
    Take care yall !
    Scott

    Posted 12 years ago #
  28. Smudge
    Member

    ^what he said!^

    Incidentally some of the new MAN trucks I very occasionally drive don't just have a limiter, and cruise control, they also have a "licence saver" speed limiter which I can set on the fly, lets the truck drive normally up to the speed I set which it will not exceed, very handy round town, motorway roadworks etc. Wish our car had one!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  29. splitshift
    Member

    @smudge, shouldnt happen cause all trucks are fitted legally with a limiter...........................
    hmm, low profile tyres while calibrating limitter will normally give up to 62 mph ! oh and just google, removing speed limiters, its no surprise that many results will originate in ireland or the baltic states.
    Now this one is allegedlly, in a scania, old series 3 R type, if while in motion, on the limit 56, if you were to switch off the ign and straight back on the limiter was dissabled for a short, couple of minutes length of time, allowed for overtaking etc, ALLEGEDLY ! apparently was used by technicians while vehicle was on rolling roads etc to callibrate stuff and set limits.
    Trucks could go much faster, safely but is the road infrastructure in place to accomodate it ? signage etc ? Surely the car drivers, and coaches, your right, they make really stupid overtakes as well, just need to learn to drive better ?
    Living in hope !
    scott

    Posted 12 years ago #
  30. splitshift
    Member

    @smudge, yes agree the licence saver is good, esp on downhill over run ! Noise scares the bejeseus out of pedestrians though ! Thing with modern trucks, is that at 40 mph on the A9 youve nothing to do, cept fall asleep ! perhaps we should have violently vibrating seats that we can set a timer on :O he he !

    Posted 12 years ago #

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