CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Princes St vs George St vs Queen St

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  1. Arellcat
    Moderator

    How would we like to see the three great streets of the first New Town redeveloped?

    Should Princes St be made trams and bikes and pedestrians only? We've previously talked about how George St, the original flagship, should be the one closed to cars and buses, and let public transport have the run of Princes St. Should Queen St be kept as the flower girl, home only to cars and taxis and motorbikes and whoever else wants to use it?

    Bikes and trams only on Princes St (suggested here) makes quite a lot of sense. More manoeuvering space. More human space.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    "Should Queen St be kept as the flower girl, home only to cars and taxis and motorbikes and whoever else wants to use it?"

    It was only recently that I 'realised' that Q St. is currently not a through road because of the tram work in York Place (buses 'only' were using this section not long ago).

    I normally use the Dundas St. to Charlotte Square bit so hadn't really noticed much change in traffic. Presumably most is using Albany Street - which residents are unlikely to want to 'suffer' permanently.

    Q St. is VERY wide - with parking on only one side. Plenty room for segregated bike lanes - could be two way on Gardens side, meaning road less likely to eventually collapse too!

    It would be nice if there were no buses and taxis on Princes Street, but George Street won't be a 'proper' alternative if they stop it up - even if only at Festival time.

    Queen Street is fine for though buses, but won't help most people wanting to get to central Edinburgh.

    It's vital that tram/bus exchanges are well thought out and work - but...

    Posted 12 years ago #

  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Because our much-vaunted "tram network" is infact a bus network with half a tram route in it, I think you have to keep the bus and trams on the same street to allow easy interchange between the two. Having to shift between Princes Street and George Street to move between the two just seems silly.

    This would keep buses and trams off of George Street, making pedestrianisation far more meaningful.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  4. PS
    Member

    Tram/bus interchange could be handled at Picardy Place/York Place and St Andrew Sq in the East and Shandwick Place in the West?

    George Street does not work as a through-street for buses or cars - it's basically a large parking facility. Sticking all traffic onto Queen Street, with north/south crossings at Hanover Street and Charlotte Sq should not impact traffic flows at all. In fact, it might well help matters as you could reduce the traffic light phase that allows vehicles in and out of George St at the squares.

    Looking up Hanover St from the RSA yesterday I reflected on how wide all of the original New Town streets are - there's easily room for segregated cycle facilities on all of them. Obviously, the segregation would only be from pedestrians (and, no doubt, delivery vehicles). ;o)

    Posted 12 years ago #

  5. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Pedestrianise George Street. Simple as.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  6. PS
    Member

    Too right!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  7. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Looking at CEC's own receipt of Edinburgh Revisited: Public Space Public Life one wonders where it all went pear-shaped. It all sounded so positive at the time!

    When I have a longer lunch hour I'll read the Gehl report:

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/207/planning-policies/1096/public_realm/2

    Posted 12 years ago #

  8. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Pedestrians want to be safe and to enjoy quiet clean air.
    Pedestrians with luggage need to get to and from buses and trams and trains.
    Cyclists need safety from trams and buses and taxis.
    Cyclists need parking at convenient junctions.
    Buses and trams obscure the view of the Gardens.
    Princes St is for shopping and visiting the Gardens.
    George St is for expensive shopping.
    George St has handy squares at either end.

    It might have been more sensible if they'd put buses and trams onto George St and the peds and bikes on Princes St.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  9. Claggy Cog
    Member

    There is a Spokes petition just about this topic, and closing off Princes street to all except the trams, cyclists and pedestrians so that it can be "Europeanised". 1. we do not have the climate for a café culture, 2. the tramlines make cycling on Princes St a veritable nightmare, 3. I for one don't fancy having to evade kamikaze pedestrians running or walking out in front of me constantly, 4. it is not the iconic street it used to be, the shops are naff mostly and hardly where I would want to shop, 5. the architectural value of the street has been decimated over the past few decades. As the city fathers have managed to absolutely ruin it, I am all for letting the traffic use it to it's detriment, and lets save George Street, which still has some value, and pedestrianise that.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  10. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    1. Copenhagen and Stockholm manage.
    2. With no buses there would be space for a proper segregated cycle lane away from the tramlines.
    3. As above.
    4. Agreed (though improving the area may lead to an improvement of the shops - long haul that thoguh)
    5. Agreed wholeheartedly.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  11. kaputnik
    Moderator

    There's no reason we can't have a café culture. We manage to have a fairly healthy (and unhealthy) pub culture, and both basically involve sitting inside drinking things and socialising.

    I think what we won't ever really get is a Mediterannean-type where we sit outside all day shaded from the sun by parasols, drinking sangria and eating freshly made local delicacies.

    I would also say that the architectural merit of Princes Street shouldn't have any bearing on having a proper cycle lane down it. It's a key west-east route through the city centre, and there is no alternative traffic-free route currently in this direction. Lots of people still want to get up and down it. The Broomhouse Path has absoultely no architectural merit (particularly now it has added tram infrastructure), but I still want a good, European-standard cycle path.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  12. Arellcat
    Moderator

    From a purely transportational point of view, how do we tend to use George St and Princes St? I seldom cycle along either of them with the intent to go shopping, except in order to access Rose Street for places like Tiso. Well, only Tiso, if I'm honest. So I use them as conduits to get to/from Waverley, or Leith Street, Leith Walk Drive, or perhaps Dublin St for NCN1. If George St became the cycle conduit, it's still going to be a pain because of the poor links to it at either end. NCN1 at Randolph Place is a total shambles. St Andrew Square will still have a load of tram tracks to navigate.

    But as a place to be, the width and the architecture that has mostly been spared the concrete and glass onslaught is some compensation to not having acres of green and a view.

    Removing buses and taxis from Princes St would leave an entire lane in each direction available for cycling. That would suit me fine. And there won't be so many trams that you have to watch behind you all the time when you do cross the rails. Basically I don't care which one it is; I just want bus lanes without the buses and taxis in them.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  13. DaveC
    Member

    If they pushed busses onto Princes St only, car onto Queen Street only and pedestrianised George St, it would make a great place for a huge street market. Despite the weather cafes could extend outdoor seating from their doors and we could still have cycling mixed in on a segregated section. When I lived in East Anglia the town I lived in had two market days, nothing to stop that. Two large markets would encourage small traders to start up and the council would make money out of stall holder permits.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  14. gembo
    Member

    I vote buses and trams on princes st

    Pedestrians on all three pavements

    Cars on queen st

    Bikes on George st

    Posted 12 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    "
    With the street split horizontally, traffic would operate in a contra-flow system. It would switch at Frederick Street to the side where the bulk of bars and restaurants – at the St Andrew Square end – are located.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/george-street-could-be-cultural-corridor-of-fringe-1-2772935

    Posted 12 years ago #

  16. Tulyar
    Member

    "Split horizontally" I'm just trying to visualise a street split vertically to distribute traffic.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  17. Uberuce
    Member

    Claggy Cog for President.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  18. neddie
    Member

    What a shame the council couldn't go the whole hog and shut George St to traffic entirely during the festival.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  19. PS
    Member

    Can I suggest that the "emergency access lane" be marked as a bike lane for when it's not occupied by ambulances?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  20. Claggy Cog
    Member

    @Uberuce - really?...I'm blushing, which is not common let me say! Thank you for the thought, but I fear there is too much double speak and forked tonguedness for one such as I whose strong suit is most certainly not diplomacy!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  21. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Folk in the New Town complaining about traffic flow through their area, George Street is part of the New Town and is currently being absolutely pounded and ruined by traffic. Traffic flow increased in the streets mentioned in the article particularly when the city fathers made all the changes to the Charlotte Sq area and also effectively shutting off access via most the the streets off Princes St, i.e. N. Castle St etc. The whole idea, of course, is to make driving in the whole of the centre of town unattractive for those who insist on using their cars, making it better for everyone else concerned, but most car drivers just do not get it that they are the problem as they are traffic.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  22. Arellcat
    Moderator

    George Street is part of the New Town and is currently being absolutely pounded and ruined by traffic.

    You should check out Grosvenor Crescent. The sheer weight and lurching of buses is wrecking the road there too. In fact, the ground is subsiding on the houses side of the road and they've had to pour on great quantities of cheap tar to fill it up a bit.

    CEC should be doing everything it can towards the 10% of journeys by bike by 2020, because otherwise by then the roads will have been absolutely destroyed. I wonder if they have estimated the annual savings in roads maintenance if 10% of all journeys were done by bike? For every fifty journeys made by bike every day you could probably remove one bus and forty cars from the road and save about 60 tonnes of load damage.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/outdoor-portrait-gallery-set-for-george-street-1-2774463

    Posted 12 years ago #

  24. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Evening News ‏@edinburghpaper

    Plan to build giant underground car park beneath George Street is revived - 10 years after it was mothballed. Story in today's Evening News.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  25. cc
    Member

    Letters: More parking spaces won’t drive future success of city

    Posted 12 years ago #

  26. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Latest comment:

    "Councillor Bagshaw has a dream of an Edinburgh which "In this kind of city centre, the retail offer may evolve – fewer chain stores, more distinctively Edinburgh businesses " A dream of a City which perhaps existed in the 1930's to 1960's. His dream is clearly not of a Modern Edinburgh which needs to compete with major city centre shopping centres around the UK and a city which requires modern and up to date policies towards travel and parking, to make it a destination.
    It is time for the people of Edinburgh to claim back their city centre from the "dreams" of those like councillor Bagshaw who sees an Edinburgh lanquishing in the past, but with windfarms on the roofs!
    End GreenAnarchist Policies NOW = save the Human race and the Planet    "

    Posted 12 years ago #

  27. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    That sounds similar to the vision of a modern Glasgow that called for the demolition of Glasgow Central Station, The Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum, Glasgow School of Art, the City Chambers and the Royal Infirmary. That's just the parts they didn't get to destroy. Still, it's great for cars.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  28. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Still, it's great for cars.

    And they ended up pedestrianising half the city centre anyway.

    And they have a much better reputation for "shopping". Allegedly. With people who indulge in such frivolities as shopping.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  29. Nelly
    Member

    "Plan to build giant underground car park in George St"

    Although at the end of the article Lesley Hinds says its nonsense.

    EEN at its best.

    Back OT - ditoo Gembo

    Bus and trams on princes st

    Pedestrians on all three pavements

    Cars on queen st

    Bikes on George st (remove parking, widen the pavements and put bike route up the middle)

    Posted 12 years ago #

  30. Arellcat
    Moderator

    such frivolities as shopping

    Ah yes. 'Shopping' is what you do when you discover you can't quite get everything you need from a bike shop.

    Posted 12 years ago #

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