Yep, remember the days when you just turned up and you could check a chart which would tell you how much it cost between two different points and that was what you paid?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Why no one uses public transport
(71 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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My experience of Stagecoach buses was further enhanced last night by the journey home...
Got on the bus at St Andrews Sq, lucky, nearly missed it. I sat down, the doors closed and the driver drove into the bus stop (I know this sounds unbelievable but unfortunately it is true)!!! We wait for 10 minutes while he takes pictures of the broken window, and scratches his head.
We then get on another bus which is headed for Cowdenbeath, and told to transfer at the Ferrytoll, fine.
Headed along the A90, just past Crammond the Bus starts making funny noises, and eventually breaks down on the slip road to Queensferry. Yay. We sit there for 10 minutes while the driver phones various people and tries various things to get the bus started. Must be a heat thing because iy eventually does start after about 15minutes. We then get to the Ferrytoll, and we all exit the bus (including the folk bound for Cowdenbeath, don't know how they got home?Luckily, because the Kirkcaldy bus had 'crashed' in Edinburgh, there was at least a replacement waiting for us at Ferrytoll, the 4 of us who were going beyond the Ferrytoll got on, and the rest of the journey passed without event.
I got the train today!!
Please bike, get fixed soon so as I can get back to the drive / bike commute.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Can't you drive/bus? LRT from the park and ride is cheaper and a little more reliable.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Baldcyclist: wow. Appalling!
My colleague who lives in Peebles tells me how lucky we are in Edinburgh to have Lothian Buses. He says it's streets ahead of the big bus conglomerate which serves Peebles. He says that company runs far too few buses and always horrible rattling old wrecks. He's given up using them now, he drives his car to an Edinburgh Park & Ride and catches a Lothian bus there.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I don't know if it is just Stagecoach who are overly expensive. My wife is in crutches just now so can't drive.
She goes over to Livingston by car, usually twice a week to see family. This costs about £8 in petrol for the return trip, and takes about 35 mins each way from Burntisland.
Now because she can't drive, by train it now costs her £13.80 return, and a 45 min train journey into Edinburgh and then change for the 25 min journey out to Livingston.When we were looking at the Stagecoach website (for my journey to Edinburgh), we discovered there was a Livingston bus from Ferrytoll (operated by First Bus), great, this looks like it might be a quicker and more direct option than the train, lets investigate....
Actually it only takes about 10 minutes less, but still better, then cost wise it's £6.80 return from BI to FT, and £6 return from FT to Livi.
It's not that public transport is bad per say, if I have to get public transport to work. With a period travel pass, the train is efficient, if not a bit expensive, but I would prefer that over car.
But for occasional journeys, unless you are going from big place X, to big place Y, the service is poor, takes too lang, and is far to expensive, in my opinion anyway.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I have never had to change busses with Stagecoach and usually get the bus to work twice (four journeys) a week. I buy a 12 journey ticket, which is £26 and works out at £2.20 each journey. I did get a single once and boaked as it was as expensive as the train. The bus has benefits as it goes from near my house so I can leave 2 mins before its due and I work above the bus station in Edinburgh. It does take a long time but if I include walking to my local train station and then getting to work through the trambles its a similar time, plus I can cycle to work in the same time as the bus!
I did question the driver on the bus yesterday about where to buy season tickets as the website of very poor, and he told me I can only buy season tickets in the Stagecoach shops. He listed Dunfermline, Kirkcaldy and Ferrytoll, but I found out foro a freind on the bus this morning that in Ferrytoll he was directed to Dunfermline for a season ticket, perhaps their machine is broken?
The 12 Journey ticjkets last for four weeks and the expiry date is printed on the ticket. Some drivers are jobs worth and scrutinise the ticket, other just bored just blankley stamp (or some times not :D ) the ticket.
Don't pay the full day return on Stagecoach, its not worth it in my view.
Also if you buy a 12 Journey ticket in a shop (as the bus only takes cash and not debit cards) expect to be questioned on the bus as the drivers automatically expect to punch number 2 as number 1 is not printed. Its 2 - 12, as number 1 is usually the first journey when you bought the ticket 'ON THE BUS'. I've seen people argue with the driver about a ticket they bought at a travel shop when the driver goes to stamp number 2!
I also found that the Stagecoach website is very sparse on info unless you register an online account (no payment card details needed). Once logged in you get more info and ticket prices etc....
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Baldcyclist, granted if you already own a car and are paying the (not inconsiderable) overheads associated with owning one, then switching to public transport seems expensive on a per journey basis. There are often deals available if you look for them though, as DaveC points out.
What car drivers always forget to factor in though is cost of fuel PLUS cost of ownership (per journey) versus the cost per journey of public transport if you DON'T already own a car. I'm not saying that public transport will always be cheaper in this comparison, but it often is.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@crowriver I guess that's what I was trying to show with my example about going to Newcastle. It is also an example of where things work because everything links together quite well and the train is fast - if, say, we wanted to go from Hexham to Jedburgh (probably closer in a straight line) public transport would be much slower.
Thing is, we've got used to being able to drive. Will we ever go back to expecting to use public transport except in unusual circumstances?
Posted 11 years ago # -
switching to public transport seems expensive on a per journey basis
Fact is though driving is the norm and for most people those overheads are already absorbed into the household budget so if public transport wants to be used it has to be cheaper than the petrol. It doesn't seem expensive, it is expensive. When you consider its only a little cheaper once you include the not inconsiderable overheads its very expensive.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Crowriver It'n not just the cost of the overheads to take into account, there is also the cost of your time. How much is your time worth to you, imagine taking your work hourly rate, and plugging that into your calculations? The cost differential would drop / reverse? very quickly.
As I said, I actually don't mind public transport. Trains are very good, but also very expensive. If you had (for financial reasons, or you can't walk perhaps) have to get buses for longer journeys it would drive you mad.
As @DaveC said regard the 12 day ticket, it has a 28 day maximum validity period, so my usual 1 day per week of not cycling (normally, not just now while bikeless) would not get best value from that ticket. Accepted it would still be cheaper than buying standard returns.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Public transport is cheaper for less common trips, and where parking is prohibitively (sp??) expensive. We're trying to manage without a car after mine was scrapped. I'm used to it as I use cycle and bus to work but SWMBO is struggling with 3 trips to school a day. Once Louis is in school full time in August it will be slightly easier.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Cost displacement is an important factor in selling things to people because they rarely do that thing of taking whole life costs, spreading them over time and then adding them to transactional costs. It's too hard. They can deal with one thing at a time.
Mobile phone operators alter the balance of upfront, periodic and transactional costs so that people can pick a package that fits with their personal priorities - what I'll spend today, what I spend each month and what I spend each time I use it - but they all end up costing much the same.
Posted 11 years ago # -
SWMBO is now SWMWTS?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Cost displacement is an important factor in selling things to people
Also people mightn't have the money to buy things upfront. A LRT bus pass for example is a bit cheaper to buy annually than monthly but relies on you having ~£600 to front up. I know one person in my office who uses their bonus but I suspect most people would rather buy a big shiny thing and pay ~£50 a month for travel.
Posted 11 years ago # -
if public transport wants to be used it has to be cheaper than the petrol.
Which is almost a definition of unfair competition.
Instography's example of mobile phones is illuminating. Pay as you go is much cheaper if you don't use your phone a lot. However you have to pay up front for the hardware. With a contract, you get a 'free' phone, 'free' airtime/texts/data, etc. But you are locked into regular payments for at least 18 months, regardless of how much you use the phone.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Baldcyclist
Trains are very good, but also very expensive. If you had (for financial reasons, or you can't walk perhaps) have to get buses for longer journeys it would drive you mad.
That's all fair enough, I accept that inconvenience can be a big factor. It all depends what kind of journey you are making.
It'n not just the cost of the overheads to take into account, there is also the cost of your time. How much is your time worth to you, imagine taking your work hourly rate, and plugging that into your calculations? The cost differential would drop / reverse? very quickly.
I see that the other way round. On the train, unless it is very crowded I can usually get some work done. I can eat, walk about, visit the loo, or have a snooze. If I was driving I'd genuinely be wasting my time just in the act of driving (even given that quite a few folk enjoy driving), it would not be productive time.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Which is almost a definition of unfair competition.
Who said life was fair.
If we want to convince people to do something which is less convenient there has to be an upside, it has be cheaper or better. Long distance buses are never better than anything so they need to be cheaper and since we are trying to get people not to use the cars they already own and run it needs to be significantly cheaper than the marginal cost. Petrol. Otherwise you might as well take the car.
Posted 11 years ago # -
it would not be productive time.
Unless driving is actually quicker in which case you might get some decent quality work done instead of just checking emails. Equally if you need to be somewhere to be at a meeting sometimes time really is the only factor.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I see that the other way round. On the train, unless it is very crowded I can usually get some work done. I can eat, walk about, visit the loo, or have a snooze. If I was driving I'd genuinely be wasting my time just in the act of driving (even given that quite a few folk enjoy driving), it would not be productive time.
This is fine if you are on a longer journey, or going to work. If you just want to pop over to visit your sister who is normally just half an hour away, another hour each way on a train / bus is a fairly expensive premium to pay?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Another bother with the stagecoach fife commuter experience -
Rush hour buses leaving Edinburgh city centre to Fife fill up quickly with boomers and their free bus passes
Leaving some Fife commuters unable to get on the heaving full bus
The boomers then all get off the bus at Blackhall or Cramond, leaving it half empty for the rest of the journey to Fife
Typical boomer behaviour - they could get on the local lothian buses instead, but the fife buses are that wee bit quicker, as they don't stop so often en-route to the suburbs
Posted 11 years ago # -
If you already own the car then do you factor the running costs into the equation even if you take the bus? You're having to pay VED and insurance whether the car is left on the driveway or not, so presumably the only relevant factors to play off against the cost of the bus/train is petrol and (if you can put a figure on it) wear and tear?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Surprised no-one's mentioned the main problem: when you sit down the person behind you sneezes on the back of your head and continues to do so for the rest of the journey. Every time.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Q: If you already own the car then do you factor the running costs into the equation even if you take the bus?
A: Free public transport for car owners to help them out. Free bus pass with your next new car paid for by Ford etc?
© Not so silly ideas 2013
I wouldn't be happy as I don't have a car! Sure though that this could be used somehow as in recent survey a car is considered as much a necessity as 'white goods' in your kitchen.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I've mooted in the past hiking up VED or fuel duty and issuing drivers with a "free" bus pass. That would make the drive/don't drive decision less about the embedded costs since upfront costs of both are absorbed at the same time, then its just petrol.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@steveo, great idea. The only problem is you're not in a position to do anything about it, unless 'steveo' is a moniker for George Osborne/Keith Brown.
Posted 11 years ago # -
petrol and (if you can put a figure on it) wear and tear?
For us, 14p/mile for fuel and > 8p/mile running costs. It costs around £2.20 for me to drive to work (still much cheaper than the bus though).
Posted 11 years ago # -
The only problem is you're not in a position to do anything about it,
And if I were the world would have bigger problems... TREMBLE BEFORE ME PUNY MORTALS.... ahem...
Posted 11 years ago # -
I hear the moan about the boomers but that is a few less cars on the road. Before my Dad retired he had to be prised from his car (a suped up Subaru estate which he he only grudgingly ever takes passengers in). Since he got his bus pass though he's been pootling all over the Lothians on the bus including planning all his hill walking exploits around the bus timetables.
Posted 11 years ago # -
One of the big rules in Dutch transport planning seems to be people do what's easiest and that seems to be true here too.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I hear the moan about the boomers but that is a few less cars on the road
aye, but the rest are fuming that since they don't make much use of these free bus passes, they should be given a hefty petrol rebate instead
i kid you not -- this quaint notion got a hearty round of applause on radio scotia question time last autumn
Posted 11 years ago #
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