Aye, I got beaten to the punch! (pity, I had a QR code back to this thread ;) )
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
WARNING - cones, bottom of Argyle Place
(272 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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The trouble with turning it into a T-junction is that the crossing would end up spending less time on green as time would have to be allowed for traffic turning left out of Argyle Place.
This would probably lead to more people crossing against the red man/bike.
Some of the problems with the current layout could be resolved by making the filter lane wider to include a bike lane for filtering and putting in some additional parking restrictions to improve sight lines.
Posted 11 years ago # -
WC - Space on the signs for QR code. Space for more signs too.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Thinking about it, I realise that I have evolved the habit of cycling down Argyle Place right in the middle of the road, to (as far as I can) physically prevent cars from speeding past me. That's because they're almost invariably going to speed leftwards at the bottom of the road and shoot down the filter lane, whereas I'm going straight on into the bike lane to get into the Meadows. Unless they're physically prevented from overtaking me, car drivers often seem to try dangerous and reckless overtaking manoeuvres here. Presumably they think, if they think at all, that I'm also going to go shooting into the leftwards filter lane?
I had hoped, reading some recent comments here, that the new junction was going to be an improvement on the old one. However ThisIsEdinburgh and it appears that they're not going to make any fundamental changes, they're just going to tart it up a bit.
Here's the PDF plan for the junction. I got it by clicking through from this page.
As was observed above, they're rounding off the kerbs a bit and doing a bit of resurfacing and repainting. They're putting a raised table at the bottom of the left filter lane, after the point where bicycles and cars cross each others' path and come into conflict, rather than before, where it would have slowed down the cars in time to stop them killing someone crossing the road. They're not fixing my problem (cars speeding down Argyle Place to plunge into the left filter lane) and they're also not fixing the entrances into the MMW waiting zone as far as I can see: those coming from Argyle Place will still be blocked by motor traffic waiting to turn right out of Argyle Place; astonishingly, those coming from South Meadow Walk will still find that the cycle path does not align with the entrance to the MMW waiting zone. Unless I've misunderstood all those multi-coloured lines and blobs, anyway.
It seems to me that the junction has been (barely) redesigned by people who don't cycle through it and know very little about the problems caused by its layout. All in all this looks like a waste of time and money.
I haven't mentioned South Meadow Walk. This seems to be the only real change: a shared path is being turned into a segregated-with-paint path. That sounds to me like a teensy step in the right direction.
Posted 11 years ago # -
cc, here is the earlier discussion on CCE and a copy of the plan:
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9130#post-94743
Posted 11 years ago # -
Posted 11 years ago #
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Good photo, ch. You can see the much larger access from Argyle Place to the crossing; it might even be large enough to accommodate my cycle infrastucture monitoring and testing vehicle. Still not thrilled with the access from the west, though.
Posted 11 years ago # -
From CEC
"
There is an extended drop kerb (shown in plans) that will enable an aligned route from SMW to the waiting area. In order to segregate SMW it will be widened and a new surface provided across the full width so that is where a lot of the costs will be incurred."
Posted 11 years ago # -
The trouble with turning it into a T-junction is that the crossing would end up spending less time on green as time would have to be allowed for traffic turning left out of Argyle Place.
I didn't understand this at the time and I don't now. Making this into a T-junction would mean three phase lights instead of two phase lights, and there's no obvious reason why the phase to lose out should be the pedestrian crossing. I don't know why people think this is as obvious an outcome as you make it sound?
The throughput of Melville Drive is restricted by Tollcross at one end and Summerhall at the other, and making this junction three-phase would be just like adding an extra pedestrian crossing somewhere (to compliment the five existing ones between Summerhall and the pillars at the west end of Melville Drive).
Is anyone seriously saying that one extra pedestrian crossing would result in Melville Drive backing up? Any more than it does in peak time already?
If it was modelled and the resulting outcome was in fact that, then fair enough. But I somehow doubt it.
Does anyone know who the traffic engineer was (who apparently met with Spokes to discuss the rework)?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Making this into a T-junction would mean three phase lights instead of two phase lights, and there's no obvious reason why the phase to lose out should be the pedestrian crossing. I don't know why people think this is as obvious an outcome as you make it sound?
Oh Dave. You poor optimistic fool. Haven't you learned by now? :-(
Posted 11 years ago # -
What Min said.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I see the slip road danger as the number one priority.
Having led countless tours over here I feel it is a 'category A' risk and needs shutting off. This would be in line with re-allocating space to people on foot and bikes.
Most drivers do not consider the entry to the slip as a left turn. If they did they would use indicators and be prepared to give way to people. (A similar situation exists at Candlemaker Row). I don't think road markings alone will force the speeders to slow down.
Melville Drive is filling up anyway. Without encouraging 'modal shift' the convenience of entry points seems irrelevant. Any traffic monitoring will confirm a high proportion of RLJ'ing and dodgy mis-use of the existing. I also wonder how many cars turn left? Have we stats? Haven't noticed any great change with Argyle Place closed actually - apart from lack of the popular 41 bus.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I could do a video traffic count a couple of rush hours? Might be interesting. Semi-decent coffee to be found nearby, and a convenient island on which to sit and read...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Ban left turns from Argyle Place into Melville Drive. Simples.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Ban left turns from Argyle Place into Melville Drive."
Personally I'd shut Melville Drive between Argyle Place and Marchmont Road.
Simpleser.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Or, shut Melville Drive. (That's meant to be a park.)
Posted 11 years ago # -
Thanks for the link Arellcat! If there is going to be a smooth aligned link from SMW to MMW then I'll be much happier!
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Personally I'd shut Melville Drive between Argyle Place and Marchmont road"
Sadly that would force a lot more cars up argyle place/chalmers crescent etc - which my son has to cross to go to Sciennes Primary.
So I cant agree that one!
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Sadly that would force a lot more cars up argyle place/chalmers crescent etc"
Not necessarily.
There would need to be other 'through routes' closed.
There have been proposals to close the road outside the school and enlarge the playground...
CAN be done -
Posted 11 years ago # -
Posted 11 years ago # -
Posted 11 years ago # -
Cyclist down - Argyle Place / Melville Drive -
Posted 11 years ago # -
"There would need to be other 'through routes' closed.
There have been proposals to close the road outside the school and enlarge the playground..."
FOUND IT!
Posted 11 years ago # -
What a great looking scheme! And as it says, far cheaper and more effective than any traffic calming. I note the date (1998) but I hope it gets implemented. What an improvement that would be. And the area would be blissfully peaceful to cycle through.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I note the date (1998) but I hope it gets implemented."
Yep, that's pretty much when Safe Routes to School started in Edinburgh. A lot has happened since then, but much to do still.
CEC has done a lot under its "Safer Routes to School" programmes.
Latest news from Sciennes: "Our new playground group would like to get the road closed."
I think there is a real chance when the Sick Kids relocates.
Posted 11 years ago # -
That's wonderful, heartening news.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Any modern housing scheme would be designed much like the plans above, with single point of entry-exit into a warren of culs-de-sac (got that bit right!) and no through-route for traffic. People with cars seem to get by fine in those places, so no reason why it won't work in a tenemented area.
It's barking that Sylvan Place / Melville Terrace is open as a through route to traffic when it runs parallel to the Melville Drive superhighway just 30-or-so metres away. It should be access to Sick Kids only.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"It's barking that Sylvan Place / Melville Terrace is open as a through route to traffic"
Used to be a serious rat run - especially for taxis.
Work by the Sciennes SR2S Group got the sleeping police pillows put in - which made a lot of difference - plus the present layout in front of the school.
There used to a lot of stuff on the web from those days but it's fading...
From above link (written in 1998) -
"
Executive Summary
Sciennes School has an off centre catchment area, which stretches up to 2 miles from the school, so is particularly suited to cycling as well as walking. A survey of all children has been done which had a very good response rate (62%). This found that at present 57% walk, 3% cycle, 5% use the bus and 35% are driven.
There is a high perception of road danger at the school - 44% identified points on their journey that they regard as being particularly dangerous. There is a strong desire to cycle to school. 43% of children say they would like to cycle to school, with 37% preferring to walk.
The Safe Routes to School Group has been working with the school to promote walking and cycling
"Posted 11 years ago # -
Why is it there is such consistent cycling interest from this one school, and over so many years? They must have gone through several parent groups and head teachers in that time.
Other primary schools just less well known?
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Why is it there is such consistent cycling interest from this one school, and over so many years"
Sciennes is smack in the centre of what you might argue is edinburghs 'bike central' - probably the largest population of regular (and irregular) cyclists in the city which has the largest number of cyclists in Scotland?
Housing stock attracts a wide variety of people, from students right through to retired - but a lot of young families.
Probably something self fulfilling as well - Sciennes is the largest primary in edinburgh by pupil number - lots of kids cycling probably push others toward it?
chdot (I think) does a bit of work there, so he probably has a view.
Oh, I also forgot to say - parents with kids at Sciennes are also amazingly attractive, super intelligent and surprisingly modest.........
Posted 11 years ago #
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