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On hills, utility cycling, and cycling slowly

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  1. fimm
    Member

    So on Saturday I decided to go to Juniper Green farmers' market on the Brompton. I thought it might be interesting to record my thoughts on this, as I regularly cycle the same road on my road bike. I also have some not totally connected thoughts and questions on the subject of hills.

    So, here is my garmin trace for Saturday morning's Brompton ride. I was in full "utility cycling" gear, including a skirt (appropriatly sized skirts are great for cycling as they don't have to be clipped out of the way), the only cycle-specific thing I was wearing was my Garmin (which I hadly ever use on my Bormpton). For comparison, here are traces for Friday's "long commute" to work and home again.

    On the Brompton the outward leg took me 18:46 and the return leg 13:21. On the road bike I estimate it took me 17:30 to get to the same point and 12 minutes to get home. I run my Garmin on autostop when cycling so traffic light time doesn't get counted.

    The two rides are not totally comparable, of course, as traffic condidions are different. I felt there was more traffic going up the hill, but less going home. I had expected to feel more hassled by traffic on the Brompton, as it looks (and is) slower. Actually, I felt there was very little difference. The more upright sitting position on the B makes it easier to look over my shoulder (I haven't got very good vision in my right eye so need to get my head quite a long way round). The one place I did end up in the "door zone" I think I didn't get far enough out at the right moment.

    In a way, being on the B felt less pressured; on the road bike I think I feel that I must go fast! And coming down Lanark Road (which requires a strong primary because of parked cars and terrible road surfaces) didn't seem any worse (though this was where I felt that the lack of traffic made a difference).

    I suppose the other thing is that I don't loose either my "engine" or my obstreperousness in traffic when I change bike!

    On the subject of hills:

    My top descent speed on the Brompton is showing at just under 40 km/h, with another stretch at over 30. On the road bike I got over 40km/h (and I'm sure I can go faster than that). So, imagine you were going to put cycle paths in on the Lanark Road. Proper wide cycle paths with plently of space away from parked cars etc. Would you put one in on the downhill? Would the Dutch? What do they do with downhills? Even on the Brompton I'm pushing 20mph. Would one have to sit hard on the brakes all the way down? or would there be enough space to go safely at speed? Or would the speed merchants go in the car lane? (That road is currently 40, but I assume that my fantasy cycle lanes would also include a reduction to 30.)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    I went to a school twice last week.

    More flat than a route to Balerno, and about the same elevation at each end with a small hill in the middle, so about the same time each way.

    One day was on a heavy 'roadster' with only one effective gear.

    The next on a much lighter 21 speed.

    All journeys about 17 minutes...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. cb
    Member

    There is also the story that the CTC covered a while back about the guy who swapped at random between his steel tourer and carbon road bike for 27 mile round-trip, 843m ascent commute.

    He found there was no significant time difference, although various people on that thread suggesting that the study was flawed for various reasons.

    And the bikes didn't sound as 'different' as fimm or chdot's examples.

    (I have spotted chdot on aforementioned boneshaker, ahem, roadster several times in the last few weeks. Seems to go fast enough)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    "Seems to go fast enough"

    Same legs on both bikes.

    I'm not taking the heritage vehicle north of Princes Street until it has more gears.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. sallyhinch
    Member

    There's masses of space on Dutch (and Danish) lanes - remember that scooters use them as well as bikes. I was in Copenhagen last week and on pretty much all the tracks there was a distinct 'fast lane' and a 'slow lane'. Obviously where it's crowded you're not going to hit top speed, but you won't be riding at the pace of the slowest either. Once out of town on the Dutch tracks you do see peletons of lycra-clad racers. Of course these are tracks which are up to 4m wide (which is about the width of a single-track road) and beautifully surfaced - better than the road and likely to stay that way as bikes wear the surface so much more slowly than cars and lorries. If I was going to do 40kmh on my Brompton I'd be far happier doing it well out of the way of any traffic - and well out of the way of any potholes too.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. fimm
    Member

    I didn't hit 40 on the Brompton; I was very deliberately not trying to go fast (especially as my top gear was playing up...) I guess the swede, nice bread, and assorted meat I was bringing home gave some assistance!!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. Smudge
    Member

    I would think that when you're cycling less than a couple of hours the extra speed/reduced effort gained by lightweight, low friction, better aerodynamics etc is not enough to make a significant difference. Especially when affected by the variables of traffic, weather etc.

    My MTB shows about 4mph slower average speed than my "road" bike, (my tourer about 2mph) but on the six mile run to work it's an insignificant difference, were I to be riding all day, I would expect the difference in effort/distance covered could be more significant.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I've often felt that the interfaces with roads and junctions greatly slow down average cycling speed. Either waiting for a gap in traffic, or waiting for lights (that are timed to advantage of road traffic) to change. All too often you pass someone to find them behind you at the lights all the way to work. A higher rolling average != a higher overall average speed.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. stiltskin
    Member

    Would the Dutch? What do they do with downhills?

    I think the mistake you are making is:

    Dutch & Hills

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. steveo
    Member

    A higher rolling average != a higher overall average speed.

    We see that every day, how often do end up being overtaken by the same car after every junction. Only time this constant changing doesn't happen is when the driver gets stuck in a line of traffic longer than the lights are timed for.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. sallyhinch
    Member

    @Fimm - ah I did wonder, particularly how it would handle at that speed! Still a laden front end does wonders for its lively steering

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. sallyhinch
    Member

    This shows cycling in the 'Dutch Alps'

    http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2012/10/04/cycling-in-the-dutch-mountains/

    Note that in the video as it's a rural road those dotted lines don't mark 'cycle lanes' in the sense we understand them - they're there to visually narrow the road for cars to a single lane (like a single track road here) so they slow down. It's also a 30km/h road

    If you scroll down to the comments there's also the video of a dutch postman (fully laden) taking the wheel of the Rabobank team on a training ride in the hills.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. fimm
    Member

    More on speedy cyclists in Copenhagen:
    http://beautyandthebike.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/copenhagen.html

    Posted 12 years ago #

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