CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

TRAFFIC is to be banned from the north side of Princes Street

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  1. steveo
    Member

    " But the point stands I think. Britain's dismal modal share is a giant monument to the failure of thinking that is lumping cyclists in with traffic."

    Fair point. Take being traffic out of it. This is to make Princes Street better by increasing the shop front space. Why are "we" more important than making the space better. The few metres required for a segregated path is still coming out of pedestrian space and if the council "vision" comes to fruition there will be more furniture sharing that space, out door seating etc, Princes Street was so busy on a Saturday morning all the space was used, less so now.

    Cyclists are still getting a segregated non traffic space only 50 metres away.

    remove cycle provision from Princes St

    It has no "cycle provision" it's just the road and if we're no longer traffic then what we're talking about is asking for cycle provision to be installed!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. Edinburgh Cycle Training
    Member

    One of the things I find planning fails to do that almost every other profession does, is once a "best option" is selected, is to take a step back and look at it again. Not in isolation as a plan, but holistically.

    With Princes Street, It is clear this has not been done. Two-way segregated cycle provision just makes sense.

    Yes there may be reasonable alternatives, BUT if you cannot provide a simple, segregated two way cycle lane on one of the widest city centre thoroughfares in britain, where can you? Providing this will not deny space for any other propsed use. It can be provided here at relatively zero cost. Its a no brainer.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "It has no "cycle provision" it's just the road and if we're no longer traffic then what we're talking about is asking for cycle provision to be installed!"

    Yes but -

    As I pointed out earlier this is a 'one year trial'. Can't see them paving over the whole eastbound carriageway...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/1306-Princes-St-lobby.pdf

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. Dave
    Member

    As I pointed out earlier this is a 'one year trial'. Can't see them paving over the whole eastbound carriageway...

    Quite... it seems to me that a simple trial of the whole affair could have been achieved by setting up two-way cycling on the eastbound carriageway, and then pulling out all extraneous street furniture (bus stops!) to make more room for pedestrians and "stuff".

    If cyclists chose to go up to George St to make use of the new world-class segregated facility (which, since it's a 12 month trial, is likely just to be some cones across either end of the road IMO) then that would have been good justification for shutting down cycling on Princes St should the trial progress to a full redesign?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. crowriver
    Member

    @steveo

    whilst stopped...

    I don't see how that makes any difference. All the vehicles in the photos are parked up, just imagine it's a traffic jam. Whilst in motion at any speed (eg. 20/30 mph) they would all require additional space fore and aft for safe braking. Just casually glancing out of my window at London Road peak traffic going past, the space required appears to be at least 3 additional vehicle lengths for cars, at least 2 vehicle lengths for buses; and between 1 and 2 additional vehicle lengths for bicycles (unless it's roadies drafting each other).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. SRD
    Moderator

    Leslie Hinds says she is proposing to 'continue' the city centre report at next committee meeting:

    "Tomorrow at Transport and Environment Committee I will be proposing to continue the City Centre report until the next Committee."

    I took this to mean that they were holding it over. May be mistaken.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. SRD
    Moderator

    seems i was right...

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-one-way-system-trial-to-be-delayed-1-2952955

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Lesley Hinds, the city’s transport leader, told The Scotsman: “The city centre report came out later than I would have liked because the consultation only finished recently and there have obviously been a number of comments over the past few days.

    "

    Er?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    Lobbying still on tomorrow 9-10

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin


    Princes Street cycling lobby

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. steveo
    Member

    I don't see how that makes any difference. All the vehicles in the photos are parked up, just imagine it's a traffic jam.

    Jeez man, you would start an argument in a empty room!

    Imagine their not stopped and that traffic is flowing; as a means of transporting bodies per meter they are more efficient. If each vehicle has double the space the space in front then the bus is twice as long. The stream of cycles is (at least) twice as long and given the parked up bus already has a smaller footprint the bus' advantage is magnified further. Space to the rear is irrelevant that is the guy behinds space in front.

    Now that suggests the riders are happy riding so close to each other laterally, should they want more space to the sides, which I would on a British road with riders not experienced in pack cycling they are very quickly going to go wider than the lane which means they go behind and the space required gets even longer but still about the same width.

    In a traffic jam yes a cycle is better (so is a car) but the original point was that if more people were out of their cars and into buses the roads would be less congested, traffic would flow better and less confident cyclists would be able to avoid the bus routes....

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. steveo
    Member

    Aannnyy way back towards topic.

    Good news then. The 12 month trial would never have worked with out semi permanent installations.

    I'm still not sure Princes Street is the best place for cyclists now (trams mainly) but at least the council are listening to the majority.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Adrian Davis (@Adrian4Davis)
    04/06/2013 11:35
    Waste of space: A car at 50 km/h occupies 150 m2 of public space. At 30 km/h - 20 m2. A pedestrian 1 m2.

    See http://www.eltis.org/index.php?mainID=&id=34&forum_id=&add_entry=153#entry153 4 maths

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Key points

    1. Like two-way pedestrian flows, two-way cycle flows should be the default, whatever the restrictions on motor traffic.

    "

    http://rachelaldred.org/writing/thoughts/planning-for-cycling

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. SRD
    Moderator

    ""Further afield, in higher-cycling countries it’s assumed that you provide two-way cycling throughout the road network. Contraflow cycling should be a no-brainer: insisting cyclists travel in one direction only should be seen as being like insisting that pedestrians only walk in one direction where there are one-way streets."

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Boneshaker Magazine (@boneshakermag)
    15/06/2013 18:35
    'Bike lanes are good for business' & Citibike is good for NYC. Encouraging stuff from @yesmagazine http://www.yesmagazine.org/planet/how-bike-friendly-cities-beat-the-opposition-became-new-normal

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. LaidBack
    Member

    Mikael Colville-Andersen obviously pro cycling on Princes St in the Q+A.
    That plus 20mph limits more widely in town.
    He says look to Dublin for inspiration.
    Lesley Hinds says she's listening.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. LaidBack
    Member

    Both Lesley Hinds and Jim Orr were at talk last night (along with DdF, Ian Maxwell and many others). Monumental Motion exhibition is on at Hub now and MCA is jetting home.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. DdF
    Member

    "Both Lesley Hinds and Jim Orr were at talk last night"

    as commented on in new Spokes Princes Street article.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin


    Cycling on Princes Street

    Bus just taken 20 minutes (on bus)

    This is one reason -


    Princes Street pinch point

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. SRD
    Moderator

    "City transport convener Lesley Hinds hoped the proposed arrangements would encourage cyclists to use George Street rather than the busier Princes Street"

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/princes-street-snubbed-in-one-way-traffic-plan-1-3152436

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Instead a revised scheme, to be introduced to coincide with the launch of the tram route, will see George Street become one-way for motorists with a lane dedicated to vehicles travelling west to east and a two-way cycle lane on the other side of the street.

    Parking will be retained up the middle of the road. Pavements on the northern side of the street will be widened from North Charlotte Street to Frederick Street, while south side pavements will get the same treatment from Frederick Street to St Andrew Square, meaning large venues like The Dome and the Assembly Rooms will be able to offer outdoor seating.

    "

    I'm sure CEC knows what it's doing.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. SRD
    Moderator

    but have they given any thought to either end of George Street?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    Of course...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. kaputnik
    Moderator

    More I think of it, more I like the idea of George Street as the main E-W cycling corridor. So long as it's done properly - what's the chances of that?

    And yes it needs connected "properly" at either end as well, not just an isolated superhighway that throws you back into the blender at either end.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "Why should cyclists, about 3% of road users, get a whole side of George St to themselves? This layout will mean gridlock on one side with the other side completely empty. "

    Well, Mr EEN Commenter, because it might encourage more people to use their bike, taking them out of that gridlock, and make the city centre a more pleasant place... But we don't want things to be nice do we, then we'd have nothing to whinge about.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. PS
    Member

    Well, I like the fact that there'll be a proper two way cycle lane (as long as it is wide enough) and that all those buses won't be routed up George Street, but does all this mean no change on Princes Street?

    It may make Thistle Street a bit of a rat run for drivers who didn't find a space on the first pass.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    "
    @SpokesLothian: #PrincesStreet #cycling - no ban but no improvement. #GeorgeStreet #cycleroute. http://t.co/q8q3jRP48E @CyclingEdin @CyclingSurgeon @edfoc

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #

  30. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Moon. Stick.

    I've made my views on this clear previously.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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