Even with out the spaceheaters, you don't have to sit out side with a cafe culture. Making the space more liveable makes it better for everything (bar driving) if it means you can sit out side good, there are already bars with out door seats, mainly smokers, but its so noisy it can't be fun.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
TRAFFIC is to be banned from the north side of Princes Street
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Posted 12 years ago #
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"... unless the South St Andrews Street route is available"
Which it might be? (sounds like one of the options for George St is two-way as well - poor EEN reporting shouldn't be much of a shock).
"And outdoor heaters would blow any CO2 savings from greater cycling immediately. Greens/Greenpeace have been calling for bans on attempts to warm the outside."
I wonder what the impact of patio heaters is compared to, say, cars and buses and planes and coal fired power stations.
In terms of an 'overall impact' in making somewhere more desirable to come to, travel through and hang around in, I'd love these proposals to come to light.
I'd also like better cycling infrastructure on Leith Walk.
I'd also love a joined up prom from Cramond to Musselburgh.
A decent QBC.
Motorised traffic out of Holyrood Park.
Problem is, the 'if there's money about' discussion only has any weight if it's a choice between these plans or Leith Walk. But if these plans don't go ahead I very much doubt they'll then turn round and say, "ah, but we can now use this money for Leith Walk".
Posted 12 years ago # -
"cross-section diagrams of the proposed lane usage"
Except that the George Street one is wrong(?) shows buses on south side.
Posted 12 years ago # -
No I think George street is right, the sun shines more on the north side so peds would benefit from warmer sunshine. Retaining the parking on the north (currently middle) is a bit daft as buses would have customers alighting onto what looks like raised platforms every so oftern linked to the ped space??
Actually thinking about this, maybe this parking would act as a sheild between traffic and peds?? so maybe not so bad.
Who did they employ as their artist? I hope they returned them to their preschool nursery afterwards?
Posted 12 years ago # -
My immediate reaction is "huzzah!"
Sounds like a good plan, just a shame that G St as a whole isn't being pedestrianised. That may occur over time, though, given the festival time Spiegeltent plans and all that.
Now, we just need a segregated two-way cycle path on the north side of Leith Walk, by-passing the roundabouts, with a dedicated phase on the traffic lights at the top of Broughton Street to get onto a cycle path on a post-tram redesigned York Place and we'd then have a proper on-road facility to encourage cross-town cycling. :)
Posted 12 years ago # -
From the drawing it looks like the middle of the road parking area would be accessed via the cycle lanes. That can't be right can it?
I don't understand this bit from 2.18:
"
eastbound buses travelling along George Street will allow buses to access Waverley Bridge via the Mound,
removing the need to turn at the foot of Cockburn Street. This will make it possible to remove the roundabout at this location.
"Posted 12 years ago # -
"That may occur over time, though, given the festival time Spiegeltent plans and all that"
I was under the impression that that was under threat this year after 'complaints from traders'.
Posted 12 years ago # -
On the whole this looks pretty good to me, especially if we don't have to go around Charlotte square to get to George street from Lothian road (which seems to be what the map shows).
Posted 12 years ago # -
?
We can already do that without going round Charlotte Square.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Yes, but for some of the tram works we we all shunted around the square. Was a bit worried the George street route might resurrect that.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think there's been too much of a knee jerk negative reaction to these proposals. They seem very good from my point of view, and I am supportive. Note this:
Next Steps
2.22 The consultation process will take place following the approval of the recommendations in this report. This will take place over a four to six week period and it is the intention to report back to this Committee with the consultation findings and a project implementation plan in June.
2.23 Following the implementation of the agreed changes and temporary projects a project review and evaluation will be conducted.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Some might suggest that the consultation is not to be about whether but how.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I think there's been too much of a knee jerk negative reaction to these proposals2
Agreed.
"They seem very good from my point of view, and I am supportive"
Agreed.
"Some might suggest that the consultation is not to be about whether but how"
Really do hope so.
Posted 12 years ago # -
If this comes to pass, I sincerely hope the definition of "segregated" means cycle lanes will be separated from other traffic physically by a kerb, just the way it could originally have been done on Princes Street years ago when they narrowed the road and increased the pavement width. Outside of the Festival and Christmas time, the pavement rarely needs all that width anyway - the vast majority of pedestrians seem to see the slight slop of the newer section as a physical barrier.
There could easily be a two-way cycle route on both Princes St and George St without impacting on the room for traffic and "cafe culture". It would also remove the incentive for those awful "rogue cyclists" and "lycra louts" to ride along the pavement on the north side of Princes St.
I'm sure retailers will complain once again that it makes deliveries so much harder, but considering how often I've seen several tonnes of lorry parked on the pavement (and therefore illegal), I can't see them being truly inconvenienced.
The biggest problem in increasing cafe culture probably isn't the weather (as previous posters have demonstrated) but more likely the ridiculous rental rates that are obviously a barrier to business on Princes St.
Posted 12 years ago # -
While this doesnt tick all my boxes (closing george st being no1) it seems like a major step.
I would like to think its a precursor to more improvements, especially if 'the public' see it as positive.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I sincerely hope the definition of "segregated" means cycle lanes will be separated from other traffic physically by a kerb
Absolutely agreed...but, chances? It would be a first for Edinburgh; the lick of white paint has always been deemed sufficient to demarcate cycling 'infrastructure'. The lazy option always wins with CEC, basically.
But if this is genuinely a listening consultation (I live in hope more than expectation) then how best do we document a collective, coherent, feasible response?
Posted 12 years ago # -
It's good that a segregated cycle track is planned for George Street. Maybe the Council have picked up on a wind of change following London's Big Announcement that paint isn't good enough any more.
Of course, for there to be any hope whatever of the fantasy cycling targets being met, there needs to be a segregated cycling facility on Princes Street as well. And, of course, Leith Walk. And, such facilities need to be properly designed: the cycle tracks that are popping up in Glasgow just now are needlessly flawed in a variety of ways.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Ian Maxwell, chairman of cycle campaign group Spokes, lodged a petition in January urging transport chiefs to review a 2010 report by architects Jan Gehl that championed pedestrianising the district.He yesterday labelled the central city masterplan as “bold thinking”, but said the group would still push for parking to be removed from George Street.
Edinburgh Central MSP Marco Biagi described a 12-month trial of the traffic changes as a smart move.
Green MSP Alison Johnstone said pedestrians and cyclists deserved a much better deal on Princes Street when the tram works were over.
She said: “This is a positive plan, but I’ll be looking for real ambition in the design for a dedicated cycle path.”
Posted 12 years ago # -
WRT cafe culture in the cold; in Landshut (near Munich) at Christmas time we noticed cafes that provided blankets for your knees if you wanted to sit outside (I guess smokers mostly did, at that time of year).
Posted 12 years ago # -
I saw the same in Copenhagen
Posted 12 years ago # -
@SRD but do they clear the ice off the cycle paths in Copenhagen? I Need To Know!!!
Posted 12 years ago # -
It would appear so http://www.copenhagenize.com/2010/12/ultimate-bike-lane-snow-clearance.html
Posted 12 years ago # -
@sallyhinch
Cool...
and interesting, especially the way the bike lanes are prioritised, and they fact that they don't feel they've totally sorted it wrt grit/salt.Posted 12 years ago # -
I've sat outside pubs / cafés in the depths of winter in a number of places. All it takes is no precipitation, little/no wind and warm clothes. It ain't too difficult. It's not like we live in Siberia.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Posted 12 years ago #
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Inexplicably, ever since the Gehl report was published early in 2011, Jan Gehl’s vision for Princes Street has been modified by council officials to downplay the potential of cycling. Whilst the new proposals are the most extreme example, the same approach was apparent in earlier council reports. This was already highlighted in a Spokes briefing to councillors back in 2011, as a result of which the Head of Planning told councillors ‘it is not the intention that cycle lanes are squeezed out but are part of the solution’. A promise which again appears to have been forgotten.
It is important to note that the council is not a monolith. There are a variety of opinions amongst officers and councillors and any decision, such as this downplaying of cycling, may reflect who had the final say or who wielded the biggest baton. Pressure from outside can help redress the balance.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I fired off a quick email to my local councillors just now. The writetothem.com website is really good!
Posted 12 years ago # -
I sat outside in Copenhagen at a cafe. It was about 3 degrees and chucking it down with rain. But we had blankets and umbrellas, and it was very nice!
Posted 12 years ago # -
Got reply from local councillor. One line of note was
Thank you for letting me know your views for the meeting on Tuesday considering traffic in Princes Street.
Anyone thinking to write to a councillor might want to get in before Tuesday.Posted 12 years ago #
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