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Riding through the Dalmeny Estate because of closure of the A90 path

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  1. PS
    Member

    The waviest place I've ever been is Islay. Within 5 miles of landing at Port Askaig I'd been waved at by five different drivers and it clicked that they weren't waving because they thought they knew me but that it was just how things are done there. So I started waving back and, you know what?, it had a very positive effect on my disposition.

    So, in conclusion, we should wave more.

    Experience as a bike-borne waver to both cars and fellow cyclists suggests that it greases the wheel and forges contact and mutual recognition form both parties, which can only be a good thing out there in the urban jungle.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. Roibeard
    Member

    @PS - when I first came to Edinburgh from rural Northern Ireland (yep I'm a "teuchter"), I greeted everyone I passed on the footpath.

    Within a week, I'd worked out that this isn't done in Edinburgh, from all the strange looks I was getting...

    I seem to recall previous discussions surrounding this, trying to map the transition from urban (pretend no one else exists unless forced to acknowledge them) to rural (greet everyone you pass), and noting that such a transition even occurs in Holyrood Park...

    Even with laconic farmer greetings (subtle nod or finger salute), I'd expend quite a bit of energy on my commute, but then I don't use the NEPN or the Estate in question.

    To aid mapping the transition, when heading along the Union canal, the breakpoint is approximately the bypass...

    On the other hand, in our housing estate, I'll often thank the drivers that have waited for us where the road has narrowed to a single lane (by parked vehicles). Not that I give them any choice as to whether they'll stop or not! Just that those that stop more voluntarily, will get thanked and those that are forced to stop will get a hard stare...

    Missed doing this last night, timing my arrival at a gap to perfection only for the oncoming driver to not use it and storm past without deviation to account for my presence. Just means that next time I'll stop before the gap, to ensure that they've no choice in whether they stop or pull in.

    I don't really care if I (or the kids) have to squeeze past when the driver has stopped - it's their paintwork they're risking at that point, not my (our) safety.

    Robert

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. PS
    Member

    Whilst waving at all and sundry in the urban environment is probably not the way to go (unless one is the Queen), I would recommend acknowledging fellow road users with whom you interact (waving to let buses pull out in front of you, thumbs up to drivers when you merge into their lane whether they let you in or not etc). It all breaks down the anonymity of the urban environment and makes them recognise a fellow human being. It also shows that you are aware of their presence, which I'm sure pisses people off less than a blase "out of my way" approach.

    Clearly, there's times when it is less safe or easy to take a hand off the bars, in which case safety first.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. Roibeard
    Member

    @PS - Ah, with you now, yes acknowledge if you're interacting, definitely, although the hard stare is an acknowledgement...

    The unfortunate thing is that sometimes it's better to appear as if you haven't seen the motorist, and that means a difficult judgement call.

    If I've acknowledged the presence of the bully attempting to force their way through, they may expect me to collude by getting out of their way. If I appear not to have noticed them, they can't expect my collusion and may think better of the attempt.

    For example, the vexed matter of attempted overtaking at pinch points - if I hold my line, blissfully ignorant, they may hold back, but if I look back as if I know they are there, they may expect me to move in. Other drivers respond to the "don't you dare" look - but which driver is behind you at the moment?

    I've got the same issue on the school run - taking primary for the last 200 metres before turning right into the school. Do I look behind and risk saying "I know you're behind but I'm a militant cyclist and won't move in for you", or do I ignore them and give them the option of assuming I'm not "cycling aggressively", just unaware?

    The truth "I know you're there, but I can't trust you to pass safely, so you're just going to have to wait" isn't much better...

    Robert

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. PS
    Member

    @Roibeard My point is more a general approach to "can't we all just get along?" as opposed to one to address specific incidents. If folks in cars, on bikes and on feet acknowledge each other's humanity then the world will be a better place, man.

    We're social animals after all and likely to be more considerate of those we recognise as like us in some shape or form.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. It's one of the joys of cycling, that you can interact.

    As I approached the Innocent Tunnel this morning a young lady appeared from the gate to the path at the side, and we did that slow 'dance side to side' thing working out who was going where (I was far enough away, and taking it easy, so slowwwww), which was resolved with a friendly smile and 'what are we like' combined moment.

    I'll always wave thanks to someone who lets me out (or similar) whether in the car, on the bike, or walking.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. Instography
    Member

    I'm with PS - I wave acknowledgement to drivers who've only done what the law and good sense expects them to do like not crush me at a roundabout where I plainly have right of way. Or let me in when I clearly have no intention of stopping. That's how driving works too.

    You can see on the NEPN who is a waver and who isn't. You see people looking around them trying to judge whether to say hello to other people. Others have that fixed don't-mess-with-me-and-my-Strava-KOM-attempt face on.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Roibeard
    Member

    @PS "can't we all just get along?"

    It's good for me to be reminded of this - I'm in grumpy mood having had drivers aim for me twice last night in the course of a simple 1.5 mile cycle...

    It's not common, but it sours the attitude for a while, so it's good to have that put more in perspective...

    Robert

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. Dalmeny01
    Member

    @ Charterhall "So let me get this right Dalmeny01. You are occupying substantially more road space than a cyclist and almost the entire width of the road, you are emitting toxic and global warming pollution, you are creating noise pollution, you are creating massively more wear and tear of the road surface than any cyclist, and you are consuming a non renewable fuel source. And yet you expect cyclists to doff their cap to you when you meet ? "

    Too priceless not to respond to!

    It is precisely that attitude that needs to be stamped out amongst cyclists. Being a former cyclist (can't anymore - trapped nerve in spine prevents cycling and running) I would defend a cyclists right to responsible road use to the very last. However, and this is a big one for me:
    Are there lots of car journeys that could be made by bike? Yes.
    Is the bike a replacement for vehicles powered by internal combustion engines? Not by a country mile.

    How do you suggest that I transport around chainsaws/tools/my dog/sawn timber (I own and run a hardwood sawmill) on a bike?

    You assume a lot with your accusations of be unsustainable - we've done extensive amounts of hardwood thinning on the estate, which has been done to an extremely high standard and very sensitively. Silviculture is a very sustainable profession, and the work we do directly benefits you. The tidy, well maintained woodlands along every drive on Dalmeny are primarily due to our work (the whole of the shore walk too, from Cramond to South Queensferry). Additionally, the sawmilling side of the business produces hardwood for furniture making, using almost exclusively local timber (Edinburgh's Elm for instance) supplying Scottish and English makers. How would you suggest towing a 2 tonne sawmill to site with a bike, or indeed powering it when operating it miles from the nearest power point.

    Finally, to come to the age old argument of the motorist, how much tax does your cycle usage contribute towards the upkeep of the road? By my reckoning, I paid just a hair shy of £5000 in tax on the running of my two work vehicles, chainsaws, sawmill etc last year!

    I say this all in the most amused tone imaginable, and would like to point out that such posts as Charterhall's are laughable.

    Anyway, as regards everyone else, I think it can be agreed upon that a little friendliness on the road, no matter how unnecessary, can only be a good thing!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Aw Aw, someone mentioned 'tax'...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. allebong
    Member

    @Dalmeny: I feel Charterhalls post was out of order and I would urge you not to take it as the majority viewpoint around here - I believe most of us are also drivers, incidentally I'm not (yet) but I don't view cars as evil nor bikes as the second coming.

    However 'amused' your response is, I would also note the observation of Baldcyclist that going down the tax and who-pays-for-the-road direction is not one anyone here really wants to drag out to the last detail.

    Anyway I don't find myself heading Dalmeny way all that often but you can certainly expect a wave or thumbs up from me.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Instography
    Member

    I'm sure Dalmeny01 will be along to correct me if I'm wrong but I read the post as canny enough not just to refer to VED (and certainly not 'road tax'). I think he was careful to refer to the sum of taxes, including VAT, petrol duty etc. That seems to me a fair point. I've paid some taxes on the purchase of my bike and bits (although I got my bike at a 40% discount from HMRC) but I pay none to run it. You can can feel that it's justified (I do) but by contrast motorists are heavily taxed.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. allebong
    Member

    Without wanting to turn this into a contest of who is subsidising who, I'd note that the £5k figure was for vehicles and chainsaws/sawmill too - can't remember the last time I saw a chainsaw on the road and we are talking about road maintenance here. We have at least avoided ye olde road tax point so I assume we're all on the same level with that.

    As a bike-only person I have to deal with all manner of potholes and appalling road surfaces yet I have no part in creating them. So I could argue that I'm the one doing the subsidising here and you should all be grateful for me not wrecking the road surfaces despite paying for repairing them. I happen to find that line of argument quite infuriating so please don't take that too seriously ;)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. Instography
    Member

    What is it you think you're subsidising? You do, of course, do your own share of damage to the roads. Perhaps not directly with your bicycle and consequently to a slightly lesser extent than motorists but all those goods and people that are moving around on the roads and helping provide your goods and services are at least partially damaging the roads on your behalf. That may not be your choice but nevertheless it remains the case.

    In terms of cash collected, the total paid in motoring taxes in 2011/12 was £32billion. That includes VED, fuel duty and VAT on fuel. In the same year, the total collected in income taxes was £30billion.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. allebong
    Member

    Right and amongst the reasons I find said arguments infuriating is because they fall apart at the slightest examination as you so readily demonstrated.

    Anyway this is drifting. On the topic of greeting other cyclists on say the NEPN I have to admit I don't bother. On some days if I gave a wave to everyone I passed I'd end up crashing from barely holding the bars. I mean I assume when you drive you don't give a wave to everyone passing you the other way? Seems absurd to do it on a bike.

    I will however give a compliment and word of approval to anyone on a unicycle.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. minus six
    Member

    It is precisely that attitude that needs to be stamped out amongst cyclists

    I'd suggest a forced work camp. That'll adjust their ungrateful attitudes. Make sure the shackles aren't too tight though -- we'll need to make sure they are capable of carrying logs to the sawmill.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Charterhall
    Member

    Dalmeny01 (and others), clearly my post was out of order. When you pay that much tax I can see how irksome it must be for you not to receive effusive gratitude from all who you meet, especially from humble cyclists who you appear to perceive as not paying any tax. In fact you are incorrect in this but should our paths cross I will overlook this and thank you anyway.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. Instography
    Member

    Income tax = £158billion. My poor reading. Weird that you can wake up thinking that there's something not right with a number. I'll go away and have a wee think about what that means.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. cb
    Member

    "Income tax = £158billion"

    That's a relief.

    I don't think that Charterhall ever suggested that Dalmeny01 should use a bicycle for work. That's how I read it anyway.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. I have to admit I tend to switch off and ignore any 'ggrrr! car! bad! cyclist smash!' posts, so I have no idea what you're all going on about.

    Cyclists aren't cyclists they're people on bikes
    Drivers aren't drivers they're people in cars
    Pedestrians aren't pedestrians they're people on foot

    When did people start hating people for being people? Smile, wave, say thanks. It's not hard, it's polite, it makes for a more pleasant world (and if you won't wave at drivers because they're drivers then don't complain about drivers complaining about cyclists because they're cyclists, and get off you ridiculously high horse, take a reality check, have a nice cup of tea, aaaaaaaaaaand relax).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. minus six
    Member

    Cyclists aren't cyclists they're people on bikes
    Drivers aren't drivers they're people in cars
    Pedestrians aren't pedestrians they're people on foot

    You're quite right, of course; and the realisation of this can only happen at a personal level for each of us.

    Yet it is very difficult to maintain this view day in day out, because:

    Drivers aren't drivers they're people in cars

    ... is the only one of the three that our mass media accepts, such is the utter domination of car culture in the UK. Its drummed into us daily, relentlessly.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. And that's a reason not to wave thanks to drivers who move over for us etc.?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. minus six
    Member

    personally, i do acknowledge all kinds of road users, daily.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. Good.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. DaveC
    Member

    I think the work Dalmeny01 is doing is mighty fine. I have cycled most roads in the estate on my journeys inot and out of Edinburgh, and I do se a difference in the woolands now its being cleared of dead wood and tidied up in general. It is due to this work that its such a pleasure to cycle through. I recall playing in woods in my youth in Yorkshire and how thick of brambles and such they were. We recently visited Landmark in Carrbridge. Landmark has lovely woodlans in their estate, and they are such a pleasure to walk through as you can walk between the trees, unlike most newer planted forests which are nothing more than a farmers crop feild but with spruce?? replacing corn or wheat. Dalmeny is a fine estate and I personally feel very lucky that I can travel through there on my way to and from work. For this alone I doft my helmet to the woodland workers for the hard work they are doing.

    Dave C

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. Dalmeny01
    Member

    Thanks DaveC! It's been a lot of hard work, but it's something I take quite a lot of pride in.

    I would imagine that the car/cyclist debate has played out many times here, so I'll try to avoid it. The real issue here is the massive lack of any infrastructure for cyclists - all northern European countries have wonderful cycle networks that limit the need for cars and bikes to share the same space on the road. Not the case here, and having cycled quite a bit in Edinburgh when I was younger, I can confirm that it's no fun at times.

    Anyway, as I said before, I have no issue with cyclists cycling - really none at all. What does irk me is to suggest that bikes are a suitable replacement for motor vehicles. Many many people need cars/vans/lorries (I have to get a Mercedes Unimog later in the year for work - 8-12mpg!), this will never go away and we pay hugely for it in terms of taxation, and for adhering to the immensely complex law regarding operating a vehicle (gets very complicated when you go up past car - even VOSA don't know half the time).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. SRD
    Moderator

    "What does irk me is to suggest that bikes are a suitable replacement for motor vehicles.

    Obviously not for all vehicles and no one sensible would suggest that. but people say they 'have to have a car to shop' - i get to asda just fine on my bike; or to 'get the kids to school' - ditto. None of that would be true if our cities were better designed for bikes , but they're designed for cars, which makes people think they _need_ cars. And that if they own a car, they have to use it for every single journey.

    Places like Germany and the Netherlands have much higher rates of car ownership than we do, but they don't assume they need to use their car to commute on.

    What really frustrates me is that disabled people can get tax off if they buy a specially configured car, but not for an adapted bike as a mobility aid, even if it helps keep them active and healthier. that's crazy, and typical of how our society looks at these things.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    "but they're designed for cars"

    Well yes, sort of, not.

    (I know what you're meaning...)

    Of course planners, politicians and motorists forget that most of central Edinburgh was built before cars were invented!

    The closes of the Old Town weren't even designed for bicycles!

    Why are the streets of the New Town, Marchmont etc. so wide?

    I'm sure the new residents of the time didn't expect to leave their horses and carts close to their front doors!

    (Maybe this needs another thread.)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. HankChief
    Member

    https://twitter.com/harts_cyclery/status/1243269992562462720?s=19

    Dalmemy estate is saying it is closed due to Covid19

    Posted 4 years ago #
  30. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    There is a right of reasonable access. Unless folk are hugging or licking the estate staff this is cow poop.

    Posted 4 years ago #

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