" Bt looks like I'm on my own on that one"
Nope, I would have held back too - no point being right if you are dead right?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Commuting
Rubbish Driving AND Cycling (aka cyclist almost squashed)
(82 posts)-
Posted 10 years ago #
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When I'm walking across a side road and a vehicle that isn't indicating suddenly turns into it from the main road, I always like to say that I'm glad I wasn't crossing right at that moment. Especially if someone less lucky than I am is now mince.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Truck driver is bang out of order;
He wasn't indicating.
He was in slow moving traffic.
There was a cycle lane, which he HAS to be aware of, and the cyclist is perfectly within his rights to undertake in slow traffic.And if I hear one more time about large vehicle "blind spots", I'll scream. If a vehicle has a blind spot, it (or more likely, the driver) shouldn't be on the road. I do not believe for one minute that anything has a legitimate "blind spot".
I'd love to know why th epolice aren't interested in such videos.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Indeed b-t-t, but then this happened to me one morning, police took a statement, but over three chats the keenness to see this as dangerous driving waned and in the end.... nothing happened. Go figure.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@barnton-to-town - While I dont disagree about the truck driver, it still wouldnt make me undertake him in those circumstances - if you cant see the driver, he cant see you.
Blind spots do exist, and they are one of the primary reasons for so many cyclist fatalities in London.
Not saying it is 'ok' by the way, far from it, but many lorry drivers simply cant see anything coming up the inside - its all about judgement calls, and in this case I wouldnt have gone.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Holy smoke! That was close! I'd not have gone up there either but like I said earlier different peoples spidy sense is triggered by different things. That said the trucker is a liability and lucky he didn't kill that guy.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Not saying it is 'ok' by the way, far from it, but many lorry drivers simply cant see anything coming up the inside - its all about judgement calls, and in this case I wouldnt have gone.
All the more reason to indicate! I can sympathise with some arguments, but come on! If he had been indicating, then of course the person on the bike shouldn't have (and presumably wouldn't have) undertaken.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"If he had been indicating, then of course the person on the bike shouldn't have (and presumably wouldn't have) undertaken."
Plenty of YouTube videos to suggest it's 'might not have' rather than 'wouldn't have'.
Posted 10 years ago # -
That was terrible driving. I don't think cyclists should have to expect every vehicle to be turning left without indicating any more than drivers should drive as if there's a Sherman tank around the next corner. It only takes a couple of seconds for the driver to "flush" his blind spot by pausing before turning. But then maybe they have deadlines to make.
Posted 10 years ago # -
" I don't think cyclists should have to expect every vehicle to be turning left without indicating"
Nope, they shouldn't, I don't think anyone is saying it's a particularly palatable state of affairs. But drivers 'do' turn left without indicating. That's my only point here. We shouldn't have to, but while every driver on the road is not perfect I think a certain level of defensive cycling is required.
Is riding behind a newly moving truck that has just been in the cycle lane with a junction to the left just ahead taking defensive riding to an extreme? Erm, the video kinda shows that, well, maybe not. The driver was wrong, the vehicle is wrong to have blind spots, but they were wrong, and the cyclist could very very easily have ended up smeared on the road because of that.
Drivers SHOULD indicate. Drivers SHOULD drive without using mobiles. Drivers SHOULD look properly before pulling out of junctions. Drivers SHOULD give enough room. And with the best will in the world, with the most draconian enforcement of traffic regulations in the world. Drivers will still do all of those things, so I'm not taking anything for granted. That said, I'll filter to the front of a queue of traffic which other people think is ridiculously dangerous, so one man's life-threatening chance is another's standard commuting technique. I just ain't arguing with a truck.
And much as we hate it, much as we know that in this situation the driver has done something idiotic, you know, as well as I do, that 99% of employers and EEN commenters and Joe Public out on the streets will see that video and say.... Well the cyclist shouldn't have gone up the side. Not saying it's right, but saying it's reality, and we're waaaaaaay off convincing anyone of the actual truth of the matter (sadly YouTube is down at the mo so can't see if the first hysterical hate-filled comment has been left).
Posted 10 years ago # -
WC - all very good points, which begs the question; why have cycle lanes when they cannot be used as intended?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Nelly - lazy blind spots may exist, and we'll always suffer from that; but that's a crime. Actual blind spots should not exist. With appropriate mirror site-ing, all round visibility can be achieved, and where it absolutely cannot, then camera technology should be added to the vehicle.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Looks like a ckassic case of driver plans to turn left further up, sees standing/slow moving traffic ahead and makes a last minute hard left. This is THE reason you simply hang back as a cyclist and only pass on the right or when the truck is stationary and not at the front of a queue with open road ahead when light turns Green.
Its been suad a million times I bet and in a perfect world where everyone was perfect the cyclist might have right of way, but we all know non of this is true. Don't Undercut HGVs on the left. Its plain slef preservation.
If I see two big blokes in a knife fight, ahead of me on a walk to my destination, I know its against the law and I have a legal right to walk past them, but would I? No way, I'd turn around and find a safer way. Just because you are legally entitled to do something doesn't mean its always safe.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@WC You almost witnessed a cyclist being run over. Seeing it on your patch must make it feel even more horrifying. Are you thinking that we would be better talking to ourselves than to drivers? Are they a lost cause?
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Are you thinking that we would be better talking to ourselves than to drivers? Are they a lost cause?"
Not in the slightest, which is why if I'd got the name of the company on the side of the truck (sadly I didn't) I'd have reported it to try and improve the driving of this particular individual. By saying it will 'always' happen that someone will be an idiot doesn't mean you stop reporting or complaining about poor driving, but rather that I modify my own cycling to take account of that. Me. Personally.
I've only ever shouted at another cyclist once for passing an HGV on the left. Because it was huge. And moving. And indicating left.
But I don't really get what the issue is with acknowledging that we can't make everyone drive the way we want them to? Or do people believe we can make all drivers 100% perfect? Again, I have to say, you can have all the moral high ground in the world. If you're dead you're dead. That's not blaming the cyclists for their own fate, the fault lies entirely with someone who has done something stupid and illegal like the driver of that truck; but simply saying that for me passing the inside of a truck like that just before a left turn is something I wouldn't do. I don't do. And on more than a few occasions has meant I wasn't in that position, in front of a cab, as the truck turns left. I'll continue to do that, and if people don't want to do that I'm not going to force them, because like everyone I'd rather drivers just behaved themselves a bit more.
"WC - all very good points, which begs the question; why have cycle lanes when they cannot be used as intended?"
It's a good question.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Actually, flip the question...
If the cyclist in the video had adopted a wait and see approach to the truck would he have been almost flattened? It doesn't change how wrong the driver was to do what he did, but all of a sudden there's no video there to have a debate about.
(and I should have let the video roll on as I caught up at the next lights, so it's not as if any time would have been lost, and we do complain about drivers being impatient...)
Posted 10 years ago # -
@ Wilmington's Cow
"Both actually had right of way, who had priority is a matter of debate."
I wouldn't say it was up for debate at all. The lorry was turning off the road and therefore should have given way to anyone alongside (or potentially about to pass alongside as there was a cycle lane).
That said, the cyclist took a foolish risk and I would also have held back, especially seeing the lorry had already been in the cycle lane and therefore was guilty of either or both of bad spacial awareness and lack of care towards cyclists.
The cyclist should get a quiet talking to regarding sensible decisions whilst the driver should be in hot water.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Is it easier to educate cyclists or drivers? As a driver I don't remember any attempt to teach me to take care around cyclists (maybe "Think once, think twice, think bike" but that was before I drove and was about motorcyclists). As a cyclist I see a lot of good advice. "Never undertake a moving lorry or begin to undertake a lorry that might begin to move before you are past it" was advice I first heard about fifteen or more years ago. I just wonder if cyclists - given the useless attempts at advice from government - should take matters into our own hands. Perhaps an advice map showing difficult junctions and roads and offering advice on the best approach would help new cyclists or experienced cyclists who are off their own patch.
FWIW I wouldn't have done what either of you did.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'm well aware of the dangers of trucks, but I have to admit I might have gone down the left of that one - I'm not sure. Certainly movement in and out of the cycle lane is just "normal" wobbling around on the road, I think - people do that all the time (though perhaps not in slow moving traffic like that).
There's a place on my commute were I do go along the left of trucks, but that's a totally different situation (two proper traffic lanes, with the lane on the right held on a red light while the left lane is green).
It is interesting that when I criticised my lack of definsive cycling (on the "rubbish cycling" thread yesterday) most people told me I'd done nothing wrong; while here people are criticising someone else's poor defensive cycling.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@Cyclingmollie
"I just wonder if cyclists - given the useless attempts at advice from government - should take matters into our own hands. Perhaps an advice map showing difficult junctions and roads and offering advice on the best approach would help new cyclists or experienced cyclists who are off their own patch"
I like the idea of an advice map, and you're right about the driver training - it's not something that was every specifically mentioned to me either. I've long advocated that prospective drivers are taken out on bikes a couple of times to give them a better sense of the road.
"FWIW I wouldn't have done what either of you did."
Me going up the inside of the SUV? Yeah, there was a certain assumption on my part as well, actually based on the truck which had slowed (spidey sense was saying to turn left, heart hoped it was because there was traffic coming and he had to slow because he couldn't move left having seen the cyclist - how wrong that was). So it was more about reading the conditions, and I cleared the front a good ten yards before the junction. However, I've seen enoguh drivers prepare to turn by moving into the cycle lane really early without indicating, so there was a risk there.
@fimm
"while here people are criticising someone else's poor defensive cycling."
I think most people are saying the cyclist did nothing wrong, so it's really just me that's looking like the hypocrite having defended your riding. In all honesty I see them as totally different. You say you had a 'lack' of defensive cycling, whereas I think you genuinely had no cause to believe someone would then overtake and try to ride through a non-oindicating cyclist ahead - that was some extreme driving. Whereas here what I'm criticising isn't poor defensive cycling, but rather a lack of it, in a situation where (in my head at least, given I'd already decided if I got to thr truck I'd hang back, it was a very conscious decision) it was foreseeable what might happen. I don't think a car overtaking you as you indicate left with the driver simply assuming that a cyclist ahead who he doesn't know is connected to you would be going the same way is 'foreseeable'. If it was then everyone would assume that when anyone indicates to go anywhere absolutely everyone else will also be going that way!
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'm with WC on this - I wouldn't have filtered up the inside of that lorry at that point. There's no doubt it's appallingly dangerous driving, but looking at that video with the truck just before a junction I wouldn't have gone up the inside - it would have been possible to wait to find out if the lorry was turning for just a few metres and then filter past after the junction if the lorry hadn't turned.
Of course that's easy to say in retrospect - there have been many occasions where I've got it wrong, and I don't blame this cyclist at all - he did have right of way and the fault lies entirely with the driver.
Many years ago I did the IAM driving test (apologies), which amongst its sanctimonious pro-car nonsense at least gives some good driving advice - the best of which is to look a long way ahead of you at all times, and I try to do this on the bike and the car. The same sort of hazard anticipation exists whatever the vehicle. The reason why motorway crashes are often so awful is that people don't look beyond the car in front. I think in this case looking well ahead and seeing the possibility of that lorry having an idiot driving it, and turning left without indicating would have been prudent.
In any case I'll be looking out for a Scaffolding lorry with reg roughly SN06 FWJ - hopefully we can identify the lorry and send the video to the company. No question about the standard of driving.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@WC - Actually, flip the question...
If the cyclist in the video had adopted a wait and see approach to the truck would he have been almost flattened?
I'm a little uncomfortable with this sort of statement.
Let's stretch it a bit further - If the cyclist had not been a cyclist would he have been almost flattened?
It's not too far from the classical Road Safety position that the UK is safer for cyclists than the Netherlands because we have fewer cyclist KSIs.
Yes, the sensible cyclist would have not gone up the inside of the lorry, and the even more risk adverse person would have simply taken the car.
The "precautionary principle" is a Pandora's Box, that results in "No Cycling" signs for our own safety.
Robert
Posted 10 years ago # -
"Let's stretch it a bit further - If the cyclist had not been a cyclist would he have been almost flattened?"
Erm. no. But then they wouldn't have been on the road in that position to make that decision. not sure I see the purpose of the extension of the question...
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'm with WC here, I actually tried to think of a reasonable scenario where I'd be in that position in the car and couldn't.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Actually, Roibeard, that use of the 'precautionary principle' is a little like the 'what mext?' statements you see in the Daily Wail comments ;) (as in a story on speedbumps going in on a street and someone comments, what next? men with flags in front of cars again?).
I'm not sure advocating taking a little care going up the inside of trucks at junctions will result in signs telling cyclists to dismount at every junction they come to.
Let's ask one more question, do cyclists carry any responsibility for their own actions and safety, or otherwise, of those actions?
Posted 10 years ago # -
What if he had been walking and wanted to cross the road? Would he have had to wait until such time as there were no motor vehicles just in case one of them wanted to turn without indicating? Because that sort of thing happens very frequently. Is the pedestrian an idiot for trying to cross the road without waiting for all the motorists to drive away or come to a halt?
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'm with WC here, I actually tried to think of a reasonable scenario where I'd be in that position in the car and couldn't.
You would never be driving in the left hand lane of a two-lane road? Never ever?
Posted 10 years ago # -
You would never be driving in the left hand lane of a two-lane road? Never ever?
And have a truck sudenly turn across your path like that?
Your proposing a situation where your lane is flowing and his is stopped dead, the truck then decides to move across your lane and into a side street. Where the trucker is unaware an inside lane exisits or is unwilling to consider motor traffic may be using it whilst executing the manouver. Yeah it think it a pretty unreasonable set of assumptions.
Equally as a pedestrian you wouldn't be moving up the inside of the vehicle in this maner.
Posted 10 years ago # -
The way I look at it is this: keeping well out of the way of big trucks can add minutes to your journey and years to your life.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'm not sure where this argument is heading, but I'll throw in my tuppence:
Yes, the cyclist has every right to bomb along a clear cyclelane up the side of stationary/slow moving vehicles;
However, experience of other road users' unpredictability tells me that drivers can do unexpected things, especially in queues;
Experience of trucks/vans/commercial drivers also tells me that they are particular bad for doing the unexpected - whether due to "blindspots" (also known as not looking), over-confidence, big-vehicle bullying, impatience, tight deadlines or a perceived god-given right to do whatever they want cos it's their job and who are you to question their driving? - so I would take extra care when passing them;
Experience of queues also tells me to try to be prepared for all sort of hazards - passenger doors flung open, unseen peds stepping out from between cars, dogs, squirrels, anything really - and when you're nipping up a narrow cyclelane, I know you do not have much of an escape route.
So, yes, the cyclist has the right to do what he did, and in ideal world he would come to no grief in doing so, so he is not "in the wrong". However, he should also be aware that he is operating within the confines of an imperfect system alongside hundreds of other imperfect beings. Accidents/incidents do happen, but it's almost always better when they don't happen to you.
Posted 10 years ago #
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