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Shared space proposed at busy bus station entrance

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  1. ih
    Member

    I've no problem with a west bound cycle track on the south side of York Place so long as the east bound track is on the north side. It seems that 2-way tracks are becoming the limit of infrastructure thinking (West Coates, York Place, Waverely ramp, Meadows-Innocent) whereas it should be almost the last resort option.

    I got my saints mixed up in my last post on this thread. The 2-way cycle track on York Place should run from N St DAVID St to Picardy Place to provide connectivity to George Street and Leith Walk.

    I suspect there might be something in @crowriver's suggestion that a south side of York Place option is influenced by getting the St James' Quarter developers to pay for it.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. Fountainbridge
    Member

    It does makes logistical sense to have it on the south side. The route comes up the south side of Leith Walk and exits on the south side of York Place / Queen Street. If it were to run down the north side would involve 2 extra crossings.

    One other thing to note is the cycle route is outside the realms of this and previous planning applications, as denoted by the red line. St James have offered something like £80m to extend the tram route so I'd guess no other funding will be requested.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. neddie
    Member

    I have objected as follows:

    (Note that what I submitted got 'truncated' according to CEC's planning portal, so if you wish to submit anything as long, it may be better to email

    I wish to object to this planning application for the following reasons:

    1. The scheme as it stands will not significantly improve the pedestrian experience.

    From the developers own words: "the proposals are consistent with the
    general aim of the masterplan which is to improve the pedestrian’s experience of the public realm" and "The intention is to create a better overall network of pedestrian routes within the public realm whilst maintaining safety and accommodating the high vehicular movements"

    Unfortunately, the two statements are incompatible with each other. It is not possible to have high vehicular movements and a good pedestrian experience at the same time. If high vehicular movements are unavoidable, then pedestrians need to be removed from where the movements take place (e.g. a motorway). If pedestrian movements are unavoidable (which I think they are in this case), then the high vehicular movements need to be removed.

    2. The 2 stage toucan crossing will be detrimental to pedestrians. It is not acceptable for pedestrians/cycles (especially those with small children who must set an example by not crossing on the red man) to have to wait 4 minutes to cross the road at this point. I've no doubt that the crossing will be subservient to motor traffic, with 'dummy' button pushes. Most pedestrians/cyclists will just 'take their chances' and cross on the red man (as they currently do on Frederick St/Princes St). Furthermore, cycles and pedestrians will come on conflict (or not be able to pass each other at all) at the central toucan island.

    3. There is no need for 2 lanes to exit Elder St and 2 lanes to enter it, especially as 2 buses travelling in opposite directions cannot pass on the corner into the bus station. Cars should be banned from entering via Elder St and should access the car park from Leith St. The number of lanes should be reduced to 1 in each direction, with proper priority & timing given to the lights on York Pl, such that as soon as a bus wishes to enter or exit Elder St, the traffic lights are triggered, thus preventing a 'pile up' of buses. The rest of the time, the green man should stay on, on a single stage crossing, giving priority to pedestrians and cycles.

    4. The 2-way segregated cycle path on York Pl is shown as taking space away from pedestrians and narrowing the pavement to unacceptable levels. In the meantime the number of lanes for motorised traffic, westbound on York Pl, has increased from 1 to 2. It is unacceptable to take space away from pedestrians at this busy location, space should instead be taken from motor vehicles to create a 1-way segregated cycle route (see also point 5).

    5. The 2-way segregated cycle route will be inaccessible to cyclists travelling east and wishing to join or leave it. 2-way cycle routes on 1 side of a busy multilane road are not a good idea. It would be far better to build a 1-way segregated cycle route on each side of York Pl, by taking space away from motorised vehicles / removing parking etc.

    All of the above reasons do not favour pedestrians, nor cyclists. The council's own policy is for the hierarchy of transport modes is Pedestrians, Cycles, Trams, Buses, Taxis, Cars (most important first). It is clear that this development does not follow that priority.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. neddie
    Member

    PS. Objections have to be in by Fri 20th Nov

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. Greenroofer
    Member

    @eddie_h I got the same message about a truncated objection that I submitted (for the development around Gogar Station Road, as it happens). The email copy I got of the message from the planning system wasn't truncated as such, but it had taken out every line break and format so that the objection was almost completely unintelligible. I emailed in a formatted copy after that. It's a shame that the system doesn't support attachments...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. Fountainbridge
    Member

    "The council's own policy is for the hierarchy of transport modes is Pedestrians, Cycles, Trams, Buses, Taxis, Cars"

    Eddie - would you have a source for this? Following long email conversation with the council and councillors, trams have absolute priority, and I guess busses are next.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    I am fairly confident that this has appeared in a Council document - though possibly about 20 years ago!

    CEC is well aware of the concept.

    "

    7. The following hierarchy of road users in assessing the allocation of road space should be incorporated into planning guidance
    i. Pedestrians
    ii. Cyclists
    iii. Public transport users
    iv. Freight and deliveries
    v. Car users

    "

    (Health Impact Assessment: of the City of Edinburgh Council’s Urban Transport Strategy)

    http://www.apho.org.uk/resource/view.aspx?RID=44244

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    I'm 99% certain it was in the draft version of this -

    "Edinburgh's transport choices: interim local transport strategy 2000 to 2003" (Published 1999)

    So it was probably in the approved version.

    The 1999 report is referred to in subsequent LTSs, so perhaps the hierarchy is still 'council policy'(?)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. Klaxon
    Member

    Ironside Farrar seemed to make it quite clear at both George St events that the hierarchy with peds at the top is current council policy.

    Unless it was just make it up as you go along policy handed to them as part of their job spec.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "Following long email conversation with the council and councillors, trams have absolute priority"

    Clearly that only applies where there are trams.

    Though in practice in means no more than giving a clear signal sequence - and hope that there are no buses and taxis stuck in front!...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    Trams, Pedestrians, Cycles, Buses, Taxis, Cars would be better than the current reality.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Plans from Roseburn cycle consultation https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/roseburntoleith

    So full width pavement is to remain? Can't see how they can also squeeze in a 2.5m bike lane, plus 2 lanes of traffic in to the space.

    Capture by Paul Fountain, on Flickr

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    I get that this is a difficult junction to design. But ultimately it's a T-junction, and these are much easier than crossroads. There's also masses of space, so there are different lanes for left turning traffic/traffic going straight on / right turning traffic at each point.

    I don't see why you can't have a continuous crossing for pedestrians and bikes that goes as follows.

    Stage 1: Traffic from Elder Street turns left into York Place, Eastbound traffic on York Place turns right into Elder Street.

    Stage 2: Traffic from Elder Street turns right into York Place, Westbound traffic on York Place turns left into Elder Street.

    Stage 3: Traffic on York Place goes straight on. Pedestrians and bikes get a green light to cross the whole width of Elder street.

    There appear to be enough lanes for this to work. I don't think anyone gets in the way of the trams. In fact I don't understand what phasing they were planning that would require pedestrians to undertake a two-step crossing...

    Comments need to be in by Friday I think (although I can't find this anywhere on the website).

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. wingpig
    Member

    I wish they'd supply some summarised vehicle movement rates in various time-bands alongside the ground plans for these things, along with the proposed light-phasing stages and timings; similarly if there's a need to tie-in timings to other nearby light-controlled signals which would prevent this one from being time-variable/tidal or adaptaive.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Comments need to be in by Friday I think (although I can't find this anywhere on the website).

    Load up the planning app, click on Details Tab, Summary, then important dates.

    The last date for public comments is "Latest Advertisement Expiry Date"

    I wish they'd supply some summarised vehicle movement rates

    That's probably in the previous planning appp for the St james centre. This application only related to the street layout at Elder Street which was refused previously. No idea why this junction was refused given the rest wasn't much better

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Thanks Fountainbridge, I see it now.

    I wrote this on the train to work this morning, it's a little rushed but I saw that there are only seven objections at the moment so wanted to include mine. If anybody else wants to object that would be great!

    I object to this proposal on two grounds.

    Firstly that the junction of York Place and Elder Street is designed as to give priority to cars over pedestrians and cyclists.

    Secondly that Elder Street itself has been designed with too little thought for pedestrians and cyclists.

    On the first point, the council's 'Hierarchy of Provision' indicates that streets should be designed in such a way as to encourage walking and cycling over other transport methods. Two stage crossings, whereby pedestrians have to queue at two separate sets of lights in order to cross a single road, are fundamentally at odds with this principle, and in Jan Gehl's report to the council on making Edinburgh a liveable city it was recommended that all two-stage crossings be removed in favour of more pedestrian-friendly infrastructure. This junction lies on the council's flagship Roseburn-Leith cycle route, and the junction as designed will heavily compromise this route making it slow and unattractive. The junction should be designed so as to allow pedestrians and cyclists to cross in a single go.

    There are several factors making this junction particularly easy for designing in such a way as to provide well for pedestrians and cyclists. In particular, the junction is very wide, allowing for separate filter lanes for traffic moving in different directions, and has only three arms. In these circumstances it should be possible to provide for a crossing for cyclists and pedestrians that is not staggered. For example, one might sequence the traffic lights as follows.

    Stage 1: Traffic turns left out of Elder St into York Place and right from York Place into Elder St.

    Stage 2: Traffic turns right out of Elder St into York Place and left from York Place into Elder St.

    Stage 3. Traffic on York place travels straight on, pedestrians and cyclists cross the whole junction in one go.

    This traffic sequencing allows for a much more active-travel friendly environment.

    On the second point, it seems that currently there is little provision for cyclists travelling down Elder St. to turn easily onto the segregated cycle routes, and pavements are narrow with many signalised crossings. This should be improved.

    Anyway, if anyone else has time to object today please do!

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    One problem here is the institutional mindset not just about 'traffic flow' but also numbers of people.

    Early (CEC) objections to improving things for cyclists (and pedestrians) on Leith Walk were related to 'mustn't inconvenient buses'.

    Partly this reflected the fact that LB has a big influence and partly the 'working hierarchy' that there were many more people on buses than bikes.

    Not enough thought about restricting the volume of vehicles impending buses and bikes.

    Of course by the bus station the pedestrians are likely to be going to and from buses!

    Once again the whole problem of lack of consideration of people and their actual journeys.

    For some reason it's ok to build cycle infrastructure where priority isn't high on roads and junctions and people walking along Princes Street have to give way to people like them who happen to be passing on a bus.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. SRD
    Moderator

  19. wingpig
    Member

    I have all the documents open so will get something in by the end of the day. Recommending no staggering of crossings, extending the island to the north and a bit to the west at its north end, making the signals reactive/yellow-boxing the junction (in part to try and prevent the common occurrence of a bus simultaneously blocking westbound traffic on York Place and the pedestrian crossing, when one emerges when there is no westbound space), shifting the east chunk of pedestrian crossing south slightly (so it directly abuts the loading zone) as part of the unstaggering, widening the footway on the northwest corner of the station exit, considering another ped crossing across the dead space which people will inevitable end up scampering across as the most direct route, unstepping and shifting bike racks (as per Living Streets) and sensible use of extremely sturdy bollards to make sure nothing skims over the edges of the footway where people will be standing/waiting with bikes when buses try to sweep in and out too fast.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. acsimpson
    Member

    Does anyone have a link to the proposals on the council's systems?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. wingpig
    Member

  22. acsimpson
    Member

    Cheers

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    That link worked!

    Has the Portal changed or have I previously done it 'wrong'?

    Whenever I have tried to share links it led to 'session expired' messages.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. wingpig
    Member

    The first link on the first page ended up at what looked like an expired search result. I got back into it by searching for "Elder St" then choosing the one which wasn't someone's heating ventilation application. Maybe it works because it's the Documents tab of the application rather than the cover/details?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. wingpig
    Member

    Also, (GRIPPY) slopes/dropped kerbs to be able to get onto the cycle path from both directions along Queen Street and a nice way of getting onto the westbound path if coming out of Elder St, rather than at a very shallow angle to the dropped kerb, as at Argyle Place (not that there'd be the same problem with leaves).
    Possibly stagger the stop lines for left/right lanes exiting Elder St, to keep left-turn buses back a bit to give right-turn buses more space for turning to stop them crunching up the footway slabs on the north side of York Place? Shift the implied waiting-space for the ped crossing from Elder St east footway across bus station mouth, so that they're not being collected just where the footway is really narrow?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. neddie
    Member

    That's a very good objection from Living Streets.

    Although I'm not sure I agree there should be a zebra crossing opposite Multrees. Shared space is shared space - there should be no need to kettle pedestrians on to a zebra.

    What is very frustrating is that essentially 'amateurs' are having to tell the designers that the design:-

    - does not comply with the law (Equality Act)
    - conflicts with the City Council’s Street Design Guidance
    - conflicts with the City Council’s Active Travel Action Plan
    - etc.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. SRD
    Moderator

    I'm afraid that shared space there just translates into might versus right, and given the number of elderly, visually-impaired and otherwise less nimble folks I encounter in that area, I don't think it's the right call at all.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. acsimpson
    Member

    Am I right in thinking that the cycle path itself is outside the scope of this particular application?

    The three parking spaces on elder Street seem a little strange. The shops must have delivery facilities and other cars should be able to use the vast new multi story.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. Fountainbridge
    Member

    acsimpson you are correct that most of the cycle track is outside the realms of this application. The cycle track crossing IS within the realms of this application though.

    I'm guessing the loading bay's are for the hotels on York Place.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. Tulyar
    Member

    PS you might note that there are 2 contractors providing the 900 service coaches (8 movement per hour at St Andrew Square bus station) - 4 if you count the 1 owned by Citylink and the Fife Scottish vehicle that adds a commuter trip in the evenings. (Stagecoach) Western Scottish run the hour and xx30 through the day and Parks xx15 xx45. Bruces run the same route hourly. For greatest comfort and a relaxed attitude on bagging the Brompton, I use Bruces, and their Cataeno coaches have faster opening locker doors than the Citylink Plaxtons. Parks run coach charter & tours in addition to service coach work, and I suspect that they keep their older drivers, with more matured driving habits for the coach party work. 20 years ago it was a Parks driver I reported for counting up his cash and reconciling the ticket machine as we were rattling along the M8 at 100Kph, and drifting on to the hard shoulder - and just last year a passenger filmed another Parks driver doing exactly the same thing!

    Those of you who remember the old St Andrew Square Bus Station will remember that it had 2 lanes going out directly into St Andrew Square, and operated with buses going in via Elder Street and out as noted. The operating apron was also about twice the size and the 'uphill' bus bays lined up with the exit to the St James's Centre. The redevelopment work found that by shoehorning in a cul-de-sac bus station, there was a substantial opportunity to put in more retail units and office accommodation.

    But is would take just one serious crash ie bus/coach hits pedestrian or similar to lock up all movements in or out of the bus station/Elder Street. I also sense that when the place was designed it was built to just suit the services then running ie 3 x 900 per hour - now 5 per hour during day, far fewer Ferrytoll/Fife services. 1 x 95 and 1 x 62 per hour - both now 2 per hour.

    I'd venture to suggest that putting a new bus station at Haymarket, and bringing routes from the east side across via Mellville Drive and Tollcross would make a great deal of sense - as it can take over 10 minutes to get from Haymarket to St Andrew Square (adding 20+ minutes to a service which runs with a 15 minute frequency!) A location with good connections to the centre by rail and tram as well.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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