hey Paul, glad to see you here !
scott
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Resources
Hello from Cycle PC
(85 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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Hello Politically Correct Paul. I work for the wonderful CEC who are about to spend shedloads of dosh on new cycle infrastructure and related goodies, promised in the new coalition manifesto last week. As per video link above of my daily commute, I tend to operate mainly in 'Stealth Mode' although like you I have other cycles for special occasions. I blame it all on LaidBack and I tend to be on 3 wheels staring at car hub caps. I operate in black like you except for the optional hi-viz jacket and rather long flag. Most vehicles tend to avoid me as they think I'm already squashed roadkill tangled in a black frame, so I don't get much trouble really except for pull-outs and peds as in the vid! I have an ability to reach their tyre valves and can spray graffiti on their sills which they won't notice till they are home! And if they leave a seat belt or coat tail jammed in the passenger door, I can do up to 50mph easily by being a 'hinger oan' if you get my drift? Green lanes are my full width mecca, but I'm like Arellcat in that I have to patiently queue because of my width; so the sneaking up the inside is done with care in case I get a black taxi door in the face!
L&B's finest made a fantastic effort at POP28 by the way! Well done!
Welcome again and enjoy CCE!Posted 12 years ago # -
Hello Paul, brave move, glad you made it and that your superiors let you.
I'm a dad of two, I cycle routes that acid traffic, have had two knocks in my years. Own one bike, took son to the Parliament on a tow bike, would never let him cycle on road solo.before I get started on my serious stuff, there is a plan to hit the pub soon, would you be up for a pint (I can be the first to ask where others have forgotten)Last week I cradled the head of a fellow cyclist (and amazingly small world guy I worked with over a decade ago...) in the rain, as he lay out on Murray field road having been hit by a female Audi driver and gone over the bonnet....
Can you tell me what happened to the driver? Were they charged at all?
You can find the post on here from the day, my first aid skills were fresh but rescued by a passing motor bike nurse (both her and the casualty now sign in here, hello guys + cheeky wave +). I locked his bike up with my chain thinking he wouldn't be back to it for a few days and since I knew him better he get it there than having to find transport to a police station. We meet later that day, he designs road junctions. Can that road junction get a change? Can he not claim on the driver insurance as he was told no?
He felt like after the event she should have told him her insurance detail as she would do with a car on car collision and since she didn't he's forking out for a new bike)Posted 12 years ago # -
The police take every report of careless / dangerous / anti-social driving very seriously
hilarious start to the morning, thanks for that
some police officers might... but many don't
cyclists are often regarded as a nuisance and their road conduct is suspicious by default
get your house in order, and then i'll take the police seriously
Posted 11 years ago # -
bax, In the same way that all cyclists are not RLJ'rs, and all drivers are not aggressive, Cycle PC cant answer for or resolve every / any issue pertaining to police procedure. Its not all about 'them getting their house in order' either.
I think his presence on this forum will be useful (for us and the police). We do need to be careful that we dont scare him off though!!
Welcome Cycle PC - echo what others said, the bike police were tremendous on POP28.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I think his presence on this forum will be useful (for us and the police)"
Yes.
Perhaps there is an analogy with Lothian Buses.
There are still a small number of drivers who seem to not have embraced the 'cycle aware' training as much as 'we' might like.
BUT the fact that LB took the trouble to realise there was a 'problem' AND did something about it has made a massive difference.
I'm sure L&B is aware that there is some doubt about the consistency of enforcement and also about process when complaints are made.
Obviously the concern here is 'road safety' which has many facets.
'We' care about our own safety - and that of other "vulnerable road users". I think there is a much greater awareness of some of the issues by many people - including 'us'.
The truth is we all live in something of a 'car culture' where 'keeping the traffic flowing' is assumed to be a) what people want and b) what should be done.
The police (not just L&B) are, in general, bureaucratic and conservative - because they have a simple (but difficult) job of enforcing laws. These have been developed over many years by a variety of politicians/parties for various social/political/practical reasons. Some, obviously, for good reason, some as a knee-jerk reaction to some crisis or campaign.
They don't all fit together neatly and logically. Some people don't accept them - which is why some people still drink and drive, don't bother with seatbelts, use mobiles, drive in bus lanes etc. etc!
There was a time when social workers used to say that they would 'like to make their jobs redundant'. Haven't heard that for a while.
Similarly I'm sure some people think 'it would be nice if there was no need for police'.
It's good that there are officers in L&B who actually want conditions to be improved for people on bikes. No doubt there are people who are less concerned.
It's good that there are people in 'management' who want this to happen - and agree to things like 'engagement' via CCE - and positive involvement in PoP28.
There is a debate. There are different views (for instance) about the desirability of encouraging hi-viz with some people thinking it's necessary (and perhaps desirable) while others think it sends out wrong/mixed messages. But that isn't a police v everyone else debate.
The number of people cycling in Edinburgh is increasing. The police recognise this and rather than just 'managing' it, they actually want to encourage it.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"It's good that there are officers in L&B who actually want conditions to be improved for people on bikes."
very good indeed.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Cycle PC cant answer for or resolve every / any issue pertaining to police procedure
quite. he mentioned "The police take every report... seriously"
and i'm pointing out that "the police" is an organisation made of individuals, some of whom are often not that serious about protecting cyclists from errant motorists.
try and get an incident number yourself sometime.
and he represents L&B, a motoring organisation... but that's another topic.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yes, there is no need to be rude. We have an opportunity here, lets not lose it.
Min - The police take every report of careless / dangerous / anti-social driving very seriously and where evidence of at least two credible witnesses is available, drivers are charged an reported to the court.
That is a nice statement but it simply is not the case. This forum is full of examples of cyclists who have been hit, who have witnesses but the driver has not been charged. From the last two weeks alone we have the example given by Spytfyre above and this one. I expect you are not allowed to comment on individual cases but do you have any figures ie, % of drivers who have been found to be at fault in a collision with a cyclist and who have actually been charged over it?
As far as cycle safety goes, I hope the recent activities and upcoming events will show this isn't the case. We would never force anyone to do anything. Helmets (am I allowed to ise this word?) and 'Hi-Vis' clothing are entirely optional.
I hope so too. A few people have been stopped for riding perfectly legally and told they should be wearing hi-viz and h*lm*ts (you are allowed to say it but most people on here treat it like a sw**r w*rd after some fairly robust "discussion") and last year an officer gave an interview to the Innertube map people where he said that cycle safety is entirely up to the cyclists. I am very glad to see the ASLs are finally being enforced.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"The police take every report... seriously"
I am sure they do - but I also understand that they are not exactly over resourced - and this is not likely to improve soon.
evidence anyone who has been burgled etc trying to get action.
I have not been involved in something cycle related serious enough to merit seeking an incident report myself, so cant comment on that - but happy to acceded that if this is an issue, we should raise it and improve the situation.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Come on Bax, that was frankly uncalled for.
Yes, there need to be improvements made, but really we should ascertain whether PC Paul is the Chief Constable before we lambast him and demand that he does something about every single police officer who doesn't take things as seriously as they should.
I doubt there's a single organisation on the planet where absolutely everyone within it is on message and an under-resourced and stretched service such as the police (or for that matter any emergency service) is probably even more liable to fallibility.
Yes, things need to change (not just in LBP, but the Police in the UK in general) but rather than snipes and sarcasm perhaps we should think of constructive ways forward and make suggestions that PC Paul can take to his superiors to show that engagement is actually taking place, rather than this simply being another platform to have a go at the police which leads to them pulling the plug on the experiment and us losing that ability to speak directly to the polis.
I have twice had cause to contact the police. Once when my car stereo was nicked; once when a driver deliberately tried to nkock me off my bike. There were issues with the way both were handled (i.e. just because the first was car-related didn't mean it was taken more seriously) and I'm going to compose my thoughts on the latter into a coherent examination, with possible solutions, to deal with via PM with PC Paul.
Surely, please, that's better than shouting?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Hello and welcome.
I'm fairly new around here myself, though I'm not new to forums. They seem a friendly bunch. I cycle for transport, for pleasure and for fitness (and yes, these 3 aspects certainly overlap!)
Two questions:
1) Are you aware of the Met. Police's RoadSafe scheme? http://www.met.police.uk/roadsafelondon/
Is this something that could be considered for the Lothain and Borders force?2) What advice do you have for someone reporting an incident to the police?
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I am very glad to see the ASLs are finally being enforced." yes, but do the police know about them?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Spytfire - I can not comment on any ongoing enquiries. Sorry.
Posted 11 years ago # -
OK, I'll bite and ask a question; do you think that if as a result of the Carloway review there is the removal of the need for corroboration there will be more opportunity for cyclists to report road traffic offences and have those progressed into reports to the fiscal?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Come on Bax, that was frankly uncalled for.
I'm sure CycleCop is big enough to expect and cope with a bit of cage rattling on day one.
My juvenile dissent is fizzling out as we speak.
Onwards the peace process !
Posted 11 years ago # -
Fimm - yes I have done quite a bit of research into various forces' different campaigns, and I am in contact with officers in the Road Policing Branch of the Metropolitan Police.
If you are reporting any incident to police, as much detail as possible should be included.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Hi Paul, glad you have saddled up with the forum. I am sure lots of other interested parties monitor or swing by the forum under the radar from time to time.
Posted 11 years ago # -
When the Bicycle Police are doing their bicycle-specific policing, do they do things like just ride around and along popular cycle-commuting routes during the rush hours as if they were a normal bicycle commuter commuting to their workplace, either specifically in order to police the sort of unpleasant vehicle interactions to which cyclists are particularly subject or just to act as a visible warning against infringements of traffic laws?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Hi all,
Sorry about this. I have been asked to hang fire just now as we have to clear my activity on here with our Corporate Communications Department. Hopefully this will be cleared up by next week.
Please feel free to leave questions meantime, and I will answer them as soon as I am able.
Thank you once again and apologies for this little hic-cup.
Paul.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Ach, bloody Communications People*
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*I'm a communications person, I'm allowed to say that. Ask me to comment on any kind of meat based activity however...Posted 11 years ago # -
I refer readers to my previous comment -
"The police (not just L&B) are, in general, bureaucratic and conservative"
Well I was right about the first bit.
Let's hope there's some movement on the second...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Urm...Stepdoh, we're all made of meat. For example our cycling is based on tasty tasty ape shank and rump steaks.
I can think of one or two ape rump steaks that get me salivating. [Male CCE forumite most uncomfortable with homoerotic banter], I'm looking at you. *scours his griddle suggestively*
Posted 11 years ago # -
Lothian and Borders Police in serious danger of actually connecting with an underrepresented section of the community... I can see why Corporate Communications might get anxious!
In case this does pick up again (but either way) - there's a clear perception in almost all the cyclists I speak to that:
- there's no chance of action being taken against a dangerous driver unless you actually get killed or maimed, and certainly unless you at least get knocked off, witnesses or not.
- even if you get killed by the negligence of the driver of a bin lorry, an artic or a local haulage company truck (to give not-so-arbitrary examples) nothing will come of it
- any enforcement action is unreasonably lenient towards drivers and bizarrely heavy towards cyclists. I'm reminded particularly of that article about an afternoon "embedded" with a police cycle patrol who let off an HGV driver using his mobile then wrestled to the ground a cyclist who rode over the line at a light controlled junction. I kid you not.I could go on, but that's enough for one post. I think having actual police officers who can hear these concerns, at least go through the motions of passing them on and so on would be immensely valuable, if anyone had the balls / good sense to try it.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Hiya cycle PC good to have you here. I have to query your advice regarding road traffic offences. It's my belief that One credible witness is enough to allow a report to be submitted to the PF for prosecution.
Very little chance of a prosecution though.
There are changes coming to Scots Law regarding corroboration, much like the sensible set up in England and Wales. Look at how Cadder has affected Scots Law and section 14 detentions.Posted 11 years ago # -
fatman69 - some offences can be reported by a single witness (minor road traffic). The Carloway Review is what you refer to, about changes coming to Scots Law. This is a review only at this stage, with Lord Carloway making his recommendations to Government.
Posted 11 years ago # -
You can prosecute with only 1 witness so long as there is another piece of corroborating evidence. A CCTV camera for example may pick up on an incident which provides corroboration.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"have to clear my activity on here with our Corporate Communications Department."
I knew it was too good to be true
Posted 11 years ago # -
Uberuce: I'd barely make a snack, it's been said of me that "there's mair meat on a butcher's pencil".
To be honest, in support of Comms depts, I would be keen to ensure that someone coming on as a representative of an organisation would be communicating in a manner representative of the organisation and keeping to the organisational line.
If nothing else doing this way puts our feedback into a context where there is a remote chance it's actually going to be listened to.
That's not to say our friendly neighbourhood PC couldn't come on here personally and chat, but it would be in the 'my views are my own' way, rather than anything more official.
To be honest, for our purposes having someone in the first camp, despite it being a more limited engagement, is a lot more useful.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"
GDS (@GovUK)17/05/2012 10:42
New guidance for civil servants use of social media published. Blog post by @emercoleman here: http://bit.ly/KSjI9a #socmed"
Posted 11 years ago #
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