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Interesting discussion on road laws in Seattle

(21 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from cb

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  1. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    We had an American friend of mine from Seattle round for Christmas dinner, and driving him round to our place (before anyone jumps up and down, he suffers from CRPS so cycling (even an upright trike or the like given the pain is in his ankle) is not even remotely an option) we got to talking about traffic laws.

    He pointed out some cars parked on the road facing the wrong way for the lane they were in. Apparently in Seattle such cars would have been ticketed because, and this blew my mind as a piece of logical reasoning, the car must have been driven the wrong way on the carriageway in order to get there. I then pointed out that in the UK a car parked on the pavement can't be given a ticket unless the polis see it actually driving there and he was utterly incredulous. The simple, obvious question (that we've all posed) being "Well how do they think the car got there? Did it just teleport?"

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. Stickman
    Member

    Interesting.

    I didn't know that about parking on the pavement. What is the legal thinking behind that? As a contrast, why can cars be ticketed on double yellows even if the police didn't see the car drive on to them?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I think it's basically that the law on double yellows is that you're not allowed to park on them; whereas the law on pavements is that you're not allowed to drive on them. So technically parking on a pavement is legal (as long as you're not causing an obstruction?).

    Got nothing better to do in the office today, so should look into this a bit further, but it is most certainly the case that you have to be seen to be driving on the pavement, it's not enough that the car is just stopped there (there may be local bye-laws, which I think is certainly the case in London(?), that get round this).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. cb
    Member

    I think the parallel parking in the wrong direction thing is reasonably common, so much so that I always avoid doing it in forrin places just in case.

    "as a piece of logical reasoning, the car must have been driven the wrong way on the carriageway in order to get there"

    That's not always correct, for example on narrow streets where there is only really space for one lane between the parked cars.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    That's not always correct, for example on narrow streets where there is only really space for one lane between the parked cars

    Whcih shouldn't, therefore, really be two-way streets. But that's by the by. I think common sense in that case would operate, but we didn't get into minutiae such as that. Although I'd pedantically argue that it still is technically correct because even if there is only one lane down the centre of the parked cars, in order to park on what would be the opposite side you are then taking up a position on the opposite lane.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. cb
    Member

    Yes, I guess so. And anyway there is the whole point about it being less safe as the driver is on the wrong side of the car, etc.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. LivM
    Member

    Is there a law about driving in the wrong direction on a carriageway? Unless there are double white lines down the middle, or it's a 1-way street, I don't think there is...
    I'm sure there's some rule against parking facing traffic if it's an unlit area (people need to see your rear reflectors to spot your car), but on a lit street I don't see how it would matter. Actually it would be safer for the driver (getting out on pavement side not road side), although less easy to move off safely because of reduced visibility, being at the kerb side.

    I think a lot of roads in the US are more segregated though, with central barriers, double lines etc. So his perspective would be fair over there.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. chdot
    Admin

    "
    248
    You MUST NOT park on a road at night facing against the direction of the traffic flow unless in a recognised parking space. Laws CUR reg 101 & RVLR reg 24

    249
    All vehicles MUST display parking lights when parked on a road or a lay-by on a road with a speed limit greater than 30 mph (48 km/h).
    Law RVLR reg 24

    "

    https://www.gov.uk/waiting-and-parking/parking-at-night-248-to-252

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I've noticed a lot of people using parking lights recently, but bizarrely it's the side that's against the pavement. I always thought it should be the side out in traffic that was illuminated to make them more visible to road users?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. Kenny
    Member

    "the car must have been driven the wrong way on the carriageway in order to get there"

    Couldn't it have reversed its way along the road, thereby driving in the correct direction?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. gkgk
    Member

    Wilmington, if you are seeking interesting legal things to google in the office downtime, I recommend the case about the guy parked on the policeman's foot. I read about it in an obituary of a famous judge (perhaps Lord Denning?) and the case was cited as an example of the dead fellow's great legal mind as he had to find a suitable way to square the facts with the law as written. I'd google it myself but the light is fading, I'm on an off day, and there are bikeshop sales all over town!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. LivM
    Member

    Thanks for the references, Chdot! Yes, those pretty much cover what I mean. Parking in a parking space, it doesn't matter which way you go, and generally areas with speed limits >30mph are unlit (or are pretty obvious "clearways" like Queensferry Road).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. neddie
    Member

    @WC

    I've noticed a lot of people using parking lights recently, but bizarrely it's the side that's against the pavement

    This is because the parking lights are activated by leaving the indicator lever down in the relevant direction & switching off the ignition. So those people who've lit up the wrong side have done so inadvertently by indicating to pull into a space, then switching the engine off, without cancelling the indicators.

    At least it shows they used their indicators at least once in their lives, which is quite unusual for Edinburgh drivers.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. Kenny
    Member

    At least it shows they used their indicators at least once in their lives, which is quite unusual for Edinburgh drivers

    If you think Edinburgh is bad for that, you should take a trip to Inverness...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    LivD, the Seattle example was more as a comparison with approaches. In Seattle even on 'normal' roads driving on the wrong side is not permitted, and parking the wrong way is evidence of having driven the wrong way; in the UK I wasn't suggesting that that wasn't permitted, but in the UK driving on the pavement is not permitted, but for some reason being parked on the pavement is not evidence of having driven on the pavement.

    That was the only reason for mentioning the Seattle law, to show the difference in approaches and interpretation, rather than suggesting our laws were the same.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. stiltskin
    Member

    LivD, the Seattle example was more as a comparison with approaches. In Seattle even on 'normal' roads driving on the wrong side is not permitted,

    How do they overtake?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Passing on the left means that the overtaking vehicle must enter the oncoming lane. This should only be done in a legal passing zone, designated by either a dashed yellow centerline (indicating that passing is legal in both directions) or a solid line paired with a dashed line (indicating that passing is only legal for traffic adjacent to the broken line). A solid double yellow line indicated that passing is illegal in both directions. In some states, it is not against the law to overtake vehicles in the presence of solid yellow lines if it is safe to do so. For example, Vermont state law also allows passing across the double yellow line when no traffic is on the opposing side; however, one must pass quickly and return to the proper side.[2] However, this is unusual as most states have a ban on crossing a double yellow line except when turning, or when pedestrians, bicycles, or other obstructions in the road make it necessary. Overtaking another vehicle across a solid yellow line is usually considered a serious traffic violation in most states

    Our discussion also centred around the fact that while the US has lots of violent crime etc. it is also a deeply conservative country and rules such as those, or jaywalking, are abided by more often than not. I've no direct experience, but he was astonished on coming to the UK and seeing how willing we are to bend the little rules.

    State law obviously varies greatly as well. But I suspect the tickets for facing the wrong way are on roads with double yellows separating two lanes (and watching American lives they have those in towns and cities, not jus windy blind-bend roads like we have here. Not all roads in all counties are equal.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    But seriously, this was just about comparison and interpretation. There you have a law and it can be inferred you've broken that law by your final position; here we have to see you actually getting to that final position even though its obvious how you must have got there.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. Morningsider
    Member

    I know the parking on the pavement thing seems nuts. My understanding is that it is obvious who is committing the offence of driving on a pavement - they are the one sitting in the drivers seat. It isn't obvious who is committing the offence of parking on the pavement - as no-one is in the car. Obviously, the way round this is to issue the ticket to the vehicle owner and require them to identify the driver, as happens with speed camera issued tickets.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. Kenny
    Member

    My self-generated understanding was that theoretically the car could have been lifted and placed there, a bit like those lorries that lift cars when they are illegally parked, just the other way around, thereby not having driven on to the pavement. The "not knowing who the driver is" theory sounds more sane.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. cb
    Member

    "deeply conservative country and rules such as those, or jaywalking, are abided by more often"

    The Invention of Jaywalking Was a Massive Shaming Campaign

    Posted 11 years ago #

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