http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/First-work-in-1bn-project.6473943.jp
I wonder how many bike spaces the new E-G trains will have.
No doubt fewer on the basis that there will be more trains per hour...
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
More trains, but?
(16 posts)-
Posted 13 years ago #
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But there are only four per train at present, would they really reduce them?
Posted 13 years ago # -
It depends what sort of rolling stock they're going to use as my googling indicates the route is being electrified. I don't think even Scotrail are stupid enough to continue to run diesel trains under the wires. It wont be complete until 2015/16 anyway, so they may not have ordered them yet.
The newest trains coming in are the class 380 however Scotrail's official leaflet (linked) doesn't specify how many bikes they will take. However, it doesn't appear they will be used on Glasgow - Edinburgh routes.
The new Edinburgh - Glasgow via Airdrie and Bathgate line will use the class 344s that are currently used on the west coast. They currently have space for a couple of bikes outside the disabled toilet, but no rack. You have to find a way to balance the bike and stop it rolling under motion yourself (the chest strap on my messenger bag worked quite well)
Here endeth my essay on trains.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Hi there - my first post, so hope I get this right. The new Class 380 Desiro trains only have space for 2 bikes per train, regardless of whether it is the 3 or 4 car version. While any decision on the type of trains to run on the electrified Edinburgh-Falkirk High-Glasgow line is some time off it might be worth interested parties raising the issue of bike spaces with Transport Scotland as they have a fairly poor record of consulting with anyone, never mind cyclists.
I imagine Transport Scotland would probably want ScotRail to lease more Desiro units due to the economies of scale this would bring in maintenance etc. The interiors could easily be set out to accommodate lots more bikes, but I imagine the argument for more seats on such congested routes would be fairly compelling from a non-cyclist point of view.
Should also point out that the electrification will only increase the number of trains from 4 to 6 an hour. An extra four Edinburgh-Glasgow trains an hour will start running in December this year with the opening of the Airdrie-Bathgate line. These will take over an hour end-to-end though.
Also 37 minutes journey time quoted for electric trains is the non-stop express time, most trains will take longer than that.
Posted 13 years ago # -
So the Class 380 Desiro trains are different from the current trains? I seem to remember there are usually two bike spaces at either end and those are often over crowded.
If there are only two spaces per train that would be a serious reduction in service.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Two bike spaces per train according to ScotRail:
http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/background.html
Scroll down to the bottom of the page for details. These new trains will also run on the Edinburgh-North Berwick line, substantially reducing bike space on that route.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"that would be a serious reduction in service."
If you count the trains that go via Airdrie-Bathgate then it's likely that the number of bikes spaces per hour will actually increase.
But it would be a missed opportunity not to increase space such that a cyclist is never left on the platform.
But my question would be: is this level of Edinburgh/Glasgow connectivity really required? It would be nice if some of the money could be directed to other routes.
More Glasgow/Edinburgh trains on the line will mean more delays for other services as the flagship service always takes priority.Posted 13 years ago # -
@kaputnik, @Morningsider good to have posters with train/transport knowledge.
"These new trains will also run on the Edinburgh-North Berwick line, substantially reducing bike space on that route."
Yes that's been discussed previously -
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=695
On that route, significant reduction in conditions for people with bikes.
It's more than 10 years since bikes started being carried free on ScotRail - and freely (booking required on some lines to the north).
Of course this highlights the whole business of integrated transport, joined-up-thinking and 'whose economics is it anyway?'.
Of course 'we' just want to be able to take our bikes anywhere at anytime at no cost. (Bit like motorists really).
Arguably bikes are a space stealing nuisance which cost money to accommodate - bit like buggies, wheelchairs and large luggage.
BUT being able to do door-door, with a bike, has undoubtedly persuaded some people to switch from car to rail for some journeys.
This is what 'governments' want, and so ScotRail (and rail companies in England too) benefit. In addition most rail companies are subsidised to exist.
ScotRail (under previous ownership) got £150,000 before the £3 bike fee was dropped to "modify 46, Class 158 ScotRail Express units to accommodate 2 cycles per 2 car unit and to modify 30, Class 156 Units to accommodate an increase from 2 to 5 cycles in each 2 car unit."
To prove that providing proper bike spaces on trains is 'cost effective' is perhaps too difficult to be worth trying - too many variables.
BUT 'governments' say they want more people to walk/cycle/take PT. Someone thinks it's worth spending money on fancy new bike parking in Waverley Station, unless there is an intention to ban bikes on trains (unlikely) it's surely better to have proper provision rather than "allow" bikes in vestibules.
But then transport decisions aren't entirely rational, which is why we get £500m spent on a tram, but not a fraction of that on re-opening the South Sub. We get more urban motorways and city bypasses, which inevitable increase road traffic - plus policies that always seem to be based on the idea that 'cars are more important and that's not going to change'.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'll ask the bods at Transport Scotland. Chdot's right - the new racks at Waverley for example show that someone must be pro-bicycle, so let's hope that at least some of this feeling will be translated to rolling stock.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"Chdot's right"
I like that.
"the new racks at Waverley for example show that someone must be pro-bicycle"
Presumably someone in NetworkRail in Glasgow(?)
"
Network Rail will be an active partner in the industry steering group, being set up and chaired by ATOC, to spearhead these plans and the opportunities which arise from them. These will include working with major local employers to organise or sponsor alternatives to car driving, helping to reduce the impact on local roads while making stations more accessible by other modes of transport. Other examples include working with Sustrans on creating safe cycle routes to the station and conscious of passenger reluctance to leave bicycles at stations, we will work with train operators to understand what is needed to provide adequate secure storage, which meets the needs and concerns of those who cycle. We will address car parking provision and pricing, for example encouraging car sharing by offering advantageous car parking pricing and identifying car parking expansion requirements and solutions.
"Posted 13 years ago # -
The real problem here is the fragmentation of the rail industry. Network Rail owns and manages Waverley and Glasgow Central and are probably responsible for the new racks. ScotRail manages almost all the other stations in Scotland (although they are owned by Network Rail)and are responsible for cycle parking at these. However, ScotRail will only do what they are requied to do by Transport Scotland, who stump up over £300m annually to First Group to operate the service. Cycling isn't a Transport Scotland priority which explains the paucity of provision at most stations.
On top of this, ScotRail does not own any trains - these are leased from 3 rolling stock leasing comapnies. The internal layout of these trains is normally designed to maximise passenger revenue (and rental income for the leasing companies) meaning cyclists tend to get short shrift for the reasons CHDOT mentions. Transport Scotland did have input into the design of the Class 380 trains - and see the end result there.
Until there is one body responsible for stations, trains and intergation of transport modes we will continue to see piecemeal proviion for cyclists across the rail network.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Arguably bikes are a space stealing nuisance which cost money to accommodate - bit like buggies, wheelchairs and large luggage.
I just took bike on Scotrail train up to Dunkeld (with internet bike space ticket coursesy of eastcoast). Was a two coach train and as usual could barely cope with luggage let alone bikes. I did notice there were fold up seats inside a coach as well as the vestibule space so slight improvement. These were non-specified and quickly filled with folded buggies etc.
Most operators would run five coach trains on a two hour interval route on the main tourist and outdoor activity route through the Highlands.
I feel that debate on internal rail services has been overshadowed with the media focus on reducing time off to south. Compare existing journey time from Edinburgh to Carlisle and the time to Aberdeen or Inverness and you can see we are underachieving. Judging by the number of accidents on roads like the A90 and A9 a rail improvement could save lives as well.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Transport Scotland confirmed that electric rolling stock for Edinburgh-Glasgow was not finalised yet. The main contenders though appear to be the Class 360 which as any fule no is part of the Siemens Desiro family; and, somewhat incredibly, the Class 395 normally seen pounding the tracks of High Speed 1. And 395004 is named after Sir Chris.
I did also ask about cycle accommodation and whether there would be a consultation with commuters and tourists, but that sounds like a decision to be made rather later.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Class 395 - "maximum speed of 140 mph"
So that's E-G in about 20mins...
As if!
Posted 13 years ago # -
Well they did suggest that the stock would be geared for 100mph operation, although that's like having a supercar and only driving it at 70mph. But I doubt the Edinburgh-Glasgow line is suitable for much above 100 anyway without limiting the stops to perhaps Falkirk High and...Glasgow Queen St, where this train will tehrminate.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Rail network hits buffers as trains fail
So it would seem that the fancy new trains (without space for many bikes) don't work anyway...
Posted 13 years ago #
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