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UKIP => yes to independence?

(189 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Darkerside
  • Latest reply from kaputnik

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  1. crowriver
    Member

    over 10% of Scottish voters still voted for UKIP

    Only 34% turnout though. Most voters simply didn't bother. That is a real problem which lets quasi-fascists like UKIP in.

    The FN, unlike UKIP, are a mature party with a very well thought through programme. Some of it is abhorent, some of it not, some of it right wing, some of it not at all.

    Mussolini's Fascist regime was a relatively broad cohort too. Co-opted ideas from syndicalist trade unionism as well as authoritarian militarist nationalism from the officer class.

    The rise of UKIP in the UK reminds me of the National Front in the 1970s. The difference is UKIP are being more successful, and the media are really plugging them. I can't quite believe it at times how heavily UKIP were promoted over the past few years.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. PS
    Member

    The difference is UKIP are being more successful, and the media are really plugging them.

    Maybe this has all been processed through my filter (it's the only one I've got), but I don't think the media have been plugging UKIP. Yes, they've given them an awful lot of airtime, but all that time gave UKIP enough rope to hang themselves (which, for my money they did, quite frequently). However, a proportion of electorate must have liked what they heard.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. Charterhall
    Member

    I very much liked what I heard from Farage in his tv debate with Clegg.

    And crowriver, its funny that you should mention Mussolini because Salmond's New Model Army of thugs behaved identically to Mussolini's Blackshirts when they blockaded Farage on his visit to Edinburgh.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. wee folding bike
    Member

    PS,

    Having them on TV normalises them. Voting for UKIP is no longer the behaviour of an out group. Sort of the opposite of cycling in the UK which is an out group activity.

    As for cycling to the opera… well just don't go there.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. wee folding bike
    Member

    Pintail,

    Do you actually know who was outside the pub when Mr Farage was inside? I don't think it was who you think it was.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "I don't think it was who you think it was."

    Perhaps he was referring to Mr. F's more recent visit...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. wee folding bike
    Member

    "Protesters from all walks of life…"

    Was Mr Farage blockaded again?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

  9. PS
    Member

    Having them on TV normalises them.

    True. Who decides what is normal and what isn't?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. crowriver
    Member

    Salmond's New Model Army of thugs behaved identically to Mussolini's Blackshirts

    Oh I must have missed the public beating they gave to Farage et al with their nightsticks, followed by the lynching and running through of the corpses with swords.

    What? The protest was entirely non-violent with just a few colourful sweary words thrown, not even so much as fisticuffs?

    Roundheads not what they used to be, eh?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. Instography
    Member

    UKIP's nothing like the National Front. Just as no anti-UKIP protestors beat anyone, I don't think the retired colonels and blue rinse ladies of UKIP have been beating anyone or setting fire to any Asians' houses. Get a grip with the NF and the quasi-fascists stuff. They might be unpleasant and a bit to the right of Cameron but they don't sound much to the right of Tebbit.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. gembo
    Member

    The UKIP MEP for Scotland David Coburn looks like a Tory to me. If you add the UKIP and Tory vote you get 27.6% of a 33.5 % turn out which is around 9% of electoral roll. Think that is all the Tories? assumes Tories turn out to vote more than voters for other parties? Certainly very low turnout in n Lanarkshire. Not sure where the lib dem's went? Green?

    Very sad personally that we would elect a UKIP MEP in Scotland.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. le_soigneur
    Member

    @winpig "I wonder how many non-voters were people who really wanted to vote but physically couldn't,..<excuses>
    The 60% non-voters deliberately didn't vote. (With the advent of the postal vote, you can't even use laziness as an excuse. )
    I haven't been in a polling booth in ~10 years, yet I have voted in every election in that time.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. Morningsider
    Member

    Personally, I think the rise in UKIP is a reaction to the dominance of social liberalism (think gay marriage) and Thatcher/Friedman economic thinking (think Post Office privatisation) in the Tories/Lib Dems and sections of "New" Labour. UKIP's message of social conservatism and economic protectionism is obviously appealing to a section of society - not necessarily "right wing", but certainly "conservative".

    I don't think these people are too stupid to vote. Nor do I think they fail to understand what they are voting for - that is the argument Labour has trotted out since the SNP won power in the Scottish Parliament, that somehow people have been duped into voting for something they don't understand. I know it might seem unpalatable, but over 10% of the Scots who could be bothered to walk down to a polling station last Thursday put their cross next to UKIP - not to mention the 23,000 that voted for the BNP/Britain First (the population of a small town). I would be intrigued to know what they thought UKIP offered that the other parties didn't.

    How will the Tories/Lib Dems/New Labour react - my fear is a ratcheting up of anti-immigrant rhetoric, but little change in policy (which can't really change while we are EU members, or want full access to the EU marketplace).

    I also suspect the new UKIP intake will be put under intense media scrutiny - nothing better than building them up to knock them down again. Lots of people claim to like straight talking politicians, until the talking gets a little too straight.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. SRD
    Moderator

    Anyone else hear this car crash this morning?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-27575199

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. dg145
    Member

    Oh dear ... and people voted for this. I despair.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. Baldcyclist
    Member

    UKIP won't poll highly in the general election. Europe is still suffering the effects of the financial downturn, people are fed up and have given the main stream parties a bit of a kicking in a (perceived) nothing election.

    The interesting thing is that an unpopular incumbent govt which has 'had' to inflict some tough love on the country are sitting only a couple % points behind Labour with a year to go to a general election. I think Cameron will be quite happy with that...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. gembo
    Member

    Missed that but was reported in the bbc website. Fed up with crazy things going on in Europe. When asked by Gary Robertson (not exactly paxman) to name a crazy thing he couldn't think of anything.

    Also thinks all Scottish parties same left wingers and he will be pushing a libertarian agenda? Wining and dining in Strasbourg and Brussels at our expense?

    @baldycyclist - labour made some inroads into Tories in the English local elections. UKIP taking Tory vote in England except in London. As you said yourself, the EU vote is not likely to be replicated in a Westminster election.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. crowriver
    Member

    UKIP's nothing like the National Front.

    I didn't say they were exactly the same. Just that the rise of UKIP is reminiscent of the NF's back then. UKIP's tactics may be different, but their policies are very similar. Nowadays very few political organisations do street demos and 'anti' demos leading to fights. For a start there's barely a radical left any more to provide vigorous opposition to the extreme right. UKIP are certainly smoother operators than the NF, but politically I would argue they are quasi-fascistic.

    Kick immigrants out? Check.
    Leave the EU/EEC? Check.
    Racist remarks against black people/eastern europeans? Check.

    As for Tebbit, arguably he represented a 'hard right' wing of Thatcherism which was specifically trying to appeal to NF supporters, many of whom voted for the Tories. Quasi-fascists are not all street hoodlums in black shirts and leather jackets. Retired Colonels and the blue rinse brigade fit very well with a quasi-fascist ideology which unites across class barriers (as Mussolini and Moseley did).

    You can call this an oversimplification, an exaggeration. I don't think so, I think times are different and the far right have taken a form in these islands which is more like the FN in France, or historical populist movements like Peronism: not in its exact ideology but in the vagueness of its programme. I mean, what was the UKIP manifesto for the 2014 election? All we had to scrutinise was one from 2010, which allegedly is now "disowned". That and a load of populist soundbites, often contradictory or whacky but with clear agendas beneath.

    However small the political support relative to the total electorate, the rise of a populist quasi-fascist party is a very worrying development indeed. Characters like pintail are proof that there are some out there who like what they hear from UKIP, and presumably are prepared to vote for them. There is also the question of how the far right influences mainstream political parties, the Tories in particular, as they try to appeal to right wing voters.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. dg145
    Member

    It appears you wouldn't be the first to discern a fascist element in Farage's make-up.

    http://www.channel4.com/news/nigel-farage-ukip-letter-school-concerns-racism-fascism?fb_action_ids=10202656481147956&fb_action_types=og.recommends

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. gembo
    Member

    His schoolboy nastiness still same tactics he uses now. Being racist and then saying he is winding up lefties. He is not a naughty boy he is very right wing man

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. Stickman
    Member

    "Kick immigrants out? Check.
    Leave the EU/EEC? Check.
    Racist remarks against black people/eastern europeans? Check."

    Points 1 and 3 I'll grant you, but favouring leaving the EU does not make someone a fascist or indicate fascist tendencies.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. crowriver
    Member

    favouring leaving the EU does not make someone a fascist or indicate fascist tendencies.

    No, but it was also the policy of the National Front back in the 1970s when they were getting councillors elected in the north west of England.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. Instography
    Member

    @crowriver
    I think you misunderstand fascism.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. Stickman
    Member

    "No, but it was also the policy of the National Front back in the 1970s when they were getting councillors elected in the north west of England."

    Which still doesn't invalidate my point.

    Favouring leaving the EU doesn't make someone a fascist or indicate fascist tendencies.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Edinburgh voted the highest Green vote and lowest UKIP vote (by % of voters who bothered to vote) in Scotland. 16% Green vs. 8% UKIP. We must be doing something right?

    Edinburgh had the 2nd highest voter turnout (41.4%) after East Renfrewshire (41.6%) in Scotland.

    By %age of all eligible voters, Edinburgh voted 2nd highest %of pro-Yes parties in Scotland, behind Western Isles. The good SNP vote and very strong Green vote saw to that.

    However, the real take home message is that the vast majority of people didn't bother to vote. Whichever side of the yes/no, left/right fence you sit on, not voting amplifies the proportion of the vote going to "extremists" or "radicals" (or plain idiots), call them what you want. UKIP polled 3.5% of eligible Scottish voters and took 16% of the available seats (1/6). The lesson of the day is go out and vote, otherwise you might end up with a London businessman with some dodgy dealings in his past, who describes himself as a "Libertarian blogger" despite having only 1 blog with 1 post and 1 reply (his own), and who is ill-informed enough of Scottish politics to think the SNP are "Edinburgh solicitors doing the Highland fling".

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I'm taken aback by all this talk of fascism in relation to UKIP. It would be good to have SRD's input, but I understand fascism to result not from street-level thuggery (of which there is little in the UK) but from the conflation of state and corporate power.

    I can't then see the logic of having kittens over UKIP when Her Majesty's Government is proposing to sell our tax returns and medical records to corporations and when our every Google search is reported to Her Majesty's spies and passed on by them to foreign spies. The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership proposes to put multinational corporations effectively beyond the reach of domestic law for certain purposes. It is a matter of record that police spies now freely copulate with politically active citizens the better to spy on them, and act as agents provocateur when the citizens are insufficiently criminal.

    And people worry about UKIP?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. Dave
    Member

    There's a name for this, having a loud and fiery debate about very little of substance while everything else continues unchecked. It's the same thing as happens to cycling except on a grand scale.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. PS
    Member

    Just for the record, I wasn't saying that anyone is too stupid to vote. I was (trying to) make the point that all the handwringing that was going on to explain UKIP's showing could be boiled to the line that we need to shield elements of the electorate from unpleasant (to us) concepts and parties. It's a pernicious element of the "why oh why?" discussion.

    I found myself in the interesting position of agreeing with Tony Blair this morning when he said that neither Labour nor the Tories should respond to UKIP by moving towards their policies. Instead they should be explaining why their own policies are better.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. PS
    Member

    Edinburgh voted the highest Green vote and lowest UKIP vote (by % of voters who bothered to vote) in Scotland. 16% Green vs. 8% UKIP. We must be doing something right?

    Or are the Greens the new LibDems in Edinburgh - the middle class sophisticate's protest vote against the main parties? Because you don't have to hold your nose while putting your X in the box?

    Posted 11 years ago #

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