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And now? (Not the White Paper thread)

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "

    This burgeoning of local activism doesn’t just pose questions about legitimacy for party politicians – it does the same for leaders of “civic society”. The groups who signed a weekend letter demanding wider involvement in the Smith Commission once had the field to themselves. Now it’s clear they generally represent the formal, institutional, structured side of civic society – not its vibrant, informal, unsalaried grassroots. Many folks had misgivings about the proposed revival of the Scottish Constitutional Convention for just this reason – it was accorded respect as a representative cross-section of Scottish society but it also super-served prominent members of the “great and good”.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/lesley-riddoch-time-for-everyone-to-join-party-1-3570698

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    HMG's proposal;

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/363236/Command_paper.pdf

    Doubtless worth a close read.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. gembo
    Member

    Meanwhile on les myrtilles front, Scotmid is selling Robert Skalli Cabarnet Sauvignon 2008 at £6.99 which is not bad for that marque. The reason I bring it up as the blurb on the back gives a never seen before reference to bilberries. Quite old wine but if I hadn't put blockers on the computer around drink I could have checked the wine tracker.

    Ok was tryng to derail this but will give a report I have just heard from high ranking civil servant I know from Whitehall in the week before Indyref

    Flies, blue, running , arsed, around, like

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29606220

    At what point does a descent into madness become.....Tragedy
    When the feeling's gone and you can't go on
    It's tragedy
    When the morning cries and you don't know why
    It's hard to bear
    With no one to love you you're going nowhere

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    Funny you should quote the Bee Gees. I keep seeing this image everywhere: is it a tribute act?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. Morningsider
    Member

    IWRATS - the Command Paper is a most peculiar document. It simply lists the further devolution commitments made before the referendum by Labour, Conservative and Lib Dems. It doesn't present any proposals and simply provides web links to the proposals from the Scottish Government and Scottish Greens.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Morningsider

    Indeed...strong hints of dog-ate-my-homework type cut'n'paste antics.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    This must all be very upsetting for anyone who did vote No in the sincere belief that 'more power' would come our way.

    Does anyone on here fall into that category? I'd be keen to hear how you feel about yesterday's events in Westminster.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

  11. Stickman
    Member

  12. stiltskin
    Member

    This must all be very upsetting for anyone who did vote No in the sincere belief that 'more power' would come our way.

    In my experience, people who voted No are less likely to be upset by all this than the Yes voters who are getting upset on their behalf ;-)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. bdellar
    Member

    I think it would depend on the No voter. In many ways, they are more of a mixed bag. Some will want rid of Holyrood, some will want things as they are, some will want more devolution.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. gembo
    Member

    Stiltskin on money for No side. I want more powers but note the parliament has had powers for years that no pArty has ever used. However, the losing side in the referendum is the actual government and they sure do want the timescale instantly where I am relaxed about timescales.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "However, the losing side in the referendum is the actual government"

    That's not true as you well know.

    That's like saying that the No side is the UK Government.

    You have been the one on here saying 'let's move on'.

    Dismissing any Yes people not in the SNP is hardly helpful to your 'cause'.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. gembo
    Member

    @chdot, I was not trying to wind you up. I meant that whilst the No vote on independence was clear the government of the country, the SNP still want independence so this is an issue.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. geordiefatbloke
    Member

    Ditto with Stiltskin, the No voters that I know of were voting No long before any promises of 'more power'.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Eurosceptic MEP group collapses

    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29646414

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. I were right about that saddle
    Member

  20. chdot
    Admin

  21. chdot
    Admin

    "

    If a home-rule Scotland is to have a serious chance of charting a different course, though, it will need staunch support not only from SNP and Scottish Green members, and from left-leaning elements of Scottish civil society, but from a strong strand of enlightened and forward-looking business opinion, from serious thinkers about land use and energy policy across Scotland, and from wider international networks working to create more sustainable economic and social models.

    ...

    the governance of the UK is in disarray, thrown all of a heap by the arrival of Ukip, confused by the sudden allure of “English votes for English laws” and unable even to devise a series of general election television debates that accurately reflect the nation’s changing political landscape.

    Under these circumstances, the Scottish Government may have little to do but to stay calm and continue to demonstrate a certain basic competence for more powers to begin to accrue to it, by design or default.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/joyce-mcmillan-sturgeon-must-shape-her-own-snp-1-3575512

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Douglas Fraser (@BBCDouglasF)
    16/10/2014 11:24
    Where did Scots get #indyref info? TV/radio 71%, newspapers + websites 60%, social media 54%, campaigns 44% YouGov:

    http://bit.ly/1waFUl8

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "

    BERLIN, Sept 12 (Reuters) - The German government is considering a proposal to give the country's 16 states more freedom to set their own tax rates, even though many of the states oppose the plan.

    "
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL5N0RD2RN20140912?irpc=932

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. crowriver
    Member

    @IWRATS, I know quite a few folk who voted No. Most were always going to vote that way due to party loyalty or feeling "British". A few were scared about their jobs, mortgage, etc. U don't know anyone who voted No for more powers, though I'm sure it's a great way for No voters to deflect any potential criticism from Yes voting friends/relatives/colleagues by pretending the "Vow" swung it for them.

    The sheer lack of interest in devolution from the denizens of the palaces of Westminster is palpable. We might end up with a bit more than Labour's pathetic Devo Nano plan, but I'm frankly pessimistic about the chances of seeing the SNP or Green proposals being implemented. Doesn't mean we shouldn't push for them, just we ought to expect opposition and blocking manoeuvres from unionist parties.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. Instography
    Member

    But if people didn't vote No to get more powers, what's the case for more powers? Not that I object to more powers but there seems to be some disconnect between the result and the annoyance that the Smith Commission might not deliver everything the SNP and Greens would like (short of independence, of course).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. crowriver
    Member

    "But if people didn't vote No to get more powers, what's the case for more powers?"

    At a minmum, that the unionist parties all have proposals for more powers.SNP and Greens have more ambitious proposals. So there's a consensus amongst all political parties in Scotland (except possibly UKIP, BNP, etc.) for more powers. The differences are on how extensive those powers should be.

    "there seems to be some disconnect between the result and the annoyance that the Smith Commission might not deliver everything the SNP and Greens would like"

    I didn't say I was annoyed, I said I was pessimistic. Nobody assumes the SNP and Greens will get everything they want, but neither should the unionist parties impose a lowest common denominator approach. Lord Smith has already publicly stated this, so the end result will likely be a negotiated compromise. I don't have a problem with that, but that doesn't mean Greens, SNP shouldn't push for everything they can get.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. RJ
    Member

    10%("No") + 100%("Yes ") = > 50%(Votes cast) .

    On the basis that any position shy of full independence logically implied a "No" vote, there's a mandate for change.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. gibbo
    Member

    @RJ

    On the basis that any position shy of full independence logically implied a "No" vote, there's a mandate for change.

    You're assuming everyone voting yes wants these new powers within the UK.

    I voted Yes and don't want them.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    "I voted Yes and don't want them"

    Do you mean you want all (independence - SNP version?) or nothing?

    The No campaign - ie Con/Lab/Dem - messed up by not allowing the third (DevoSomething) question. Then got spooked by a rogue poll that put Yes ahead.

    So last minute offers of "more powers" - unspecified, unagree - and unleashed a former PM backbencher for a few days.

    Most people who voted Yes still want some things to be different.

    Some No voters wanted 'no change'. Well that was NEVER an option!

    Some people in England are now thinking about 'devolution' - and there have been vague promises of 'more powers to big cities', oh and "English votes for English Laws".

    Scotland has got the Smith process.

    If by some miracle of hard thinking and hatchet burying the proposals are acceptable to 'all' (by "all" I mean political parties - whether they should be the ones that get to decide is a different issue!) then some progress will have been made.

    What the parties put in their manifestos for next year is largely unknown. Could the No parties really use exactly the same words about 'more powers/devo'?

    The SNP will say 'vote for us to get a better chance of things happening soon/smoothly. Unfortunately - from their point of view - unless Labour completely implodes in Scotland before next May, they will not pick up many seats (might actually lose a couple away from the Central Belt).

    For 2016 the SNP would be foolish to have 'another referendum in the next five years' in its manifesto - but it could if things go 'badly' (and that would be without the SNP doing anything to sabotage things).

    Whatever the intentions/desires of people (individually and collectively) the second they crossed their ballot papers, things have moved on.

    As they say - 'the pieces were thrown up in the air and they haven't all landed yet' - whatever those who say "you lost" might wish.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Surely this whole mess has revealed the gaping hole in our system of governance? From the result we know that on the 18th of September about 55% of the electorate didn't think Scotland should be an independent country. There was a proposal for change and it was rejected.

    It could be reasonably concluded from this that;

    i) the process of devolution should be put into immediate reverse and a unitary state formed
    ii) nothing should happen
    iii) the process of devolution should be immediately pushed to its legal limits consistent with the 1707 treaty and acts

    What we will actually get is almost entirely unknowable. It will be the result of a protracted wrestling match between those people with the power to join in the fight - UK politicians. They appear to be motivated almost exclusively by tribal self-interest. Can you imagine the fun we'll have if it turns out we need a referendum on whatever the post-May 2015 government proposes? (What are the odds on that being a coalition between the red and blue conservative and unionist parties rather than the current blue/yellow one?)

    Posted 9 years ago #

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