CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

And now? (Not the White Paper thread)

(693 posts)

No tags yet.


  1. crowriver
    Member

    Sauronsbeagle ‏@Sauronsbeagle
    Worked out that the money saved by opting out of my union's funding of Labour saves me the same monthly as it costs to join @scotgp! Hurray!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. crowriver
    Member

    Richard Murphy ‏@RichardJMurphy
    The Establishment saw the #indyref as a vote against their power. Now they will wreak their revenge and they're merciless

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. Dave
    Member

    BBC- "Alex Salmond says when he asked David Cameron about the timetable for more powers, the prime minister said it was a meaningless process."

    Well, I'm glad we've got things right back on track!

    Well done Alex Salmond for getting out of it at this point - he gave everyone the choice, and that's far enough. I don't envy anyone the job of handling the backlash.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. Instography
    Member

    Both Alex Massie and Lallands Peatworrier write beautifully. Maybe I'm just too tired.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. Instography
    Member

    tomfrench85: Rumour is that's not the last big resignation we're likely to see in Scottish politics over the coming weeks #indyref

    It would hardly qualify as BIG big. Certainly not Salmond big. I can only think of one person who should be considering her position.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. Morningsider
    Member

    Dave - the BBC article states "...he would not commit to a second reading vote (in the House of Commons) by 27th March on a Scotland Bill. That was a clear promise laid out by Gordon Brown during the campaign. The prime minister says such a vote would be meaningless. I suspect he cannot guarantee the support of his party."

    Much as though it pains me to agree with David Cameron, it would be a meaningless vote. All Bills fall on the dissolution of the UK Parliament. The UK Parliament will be dissolved in April 2015 - any new Scotland Bill would fall at that point. There is no way a new Scotland Bill could be passed prior to dissolution.

    The Bill will have to be re-introduced in the next session of the UK Parliament. Where it will start the approval process all over again. Dry procedural stuff - but also fact.

    Insto - we can but hope!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. gembo
    Member

    @insto Ali D will resign at some point in the future but if immediate I had quote off journo last night

    55:45 and AS will go. Anything higher and NS will go

    Some very bad scenes of mad loyalist reaction in George Sq Glasgow on news now.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. Instography
    Member

    @gembo
    I wrote "I can only think of one person who should be considering her position."

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. gembo
    Member

    @insto I spotted your use of the female gender indicator

    NS is certainly smaller than AS

    AS is bigger than AD but would be more of a shock if AD went. Not that he is. also would be wrong of me to suggest you were suggesting that.

    As AD is a man.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. Morningsider
    Member

    gembo - I'm thinking Insto meant JL.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Darkerside

    I've always had a fondness for Belgium, but it has Flamand/Wallonian splittist tensions. Once in a lifetime will suffice.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. gembo
    Member

    @morningsider oh, not heard that one. AS, AD, NS but omitted to recall JL. JL smaller than AS too

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "

    @DavidPBMaddox: Big speech tomorrow from Gordon Brown. After his #indyref performance @scottishlabour should beg him to become leader

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

  15. chdot
    Admin

    @min

    "

    "Will Alex Salmond, having suffered such a defeat call an election? Or stand down?"

    No

    Yes

    "

    I was thinking 'stand down' (almost) immediately like a defeated leader in a General Election sense. (GB is perhaps an exception to that one...)

    I think AS has made the right decision to stand down after a brief period of continuity.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

  17. Min
    Member

    I was thinking 'stand down' (almost) immediately like a defeated leader in a General Election sense. (GB is perhaps an exception to that one...)

    I think AS has made the right decision to stand down after a brief period of continuity.

    You know when I wrote that I didn't think for one moment that he actually would! Respect is due.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. Tulyar
    Member

    Expect a massive move to "anything but that lot" for 2015 Scottish Seats - time to join the Greens or consider a co-operative independent movement?*

    * Having tried to stand as an independent candidate without the back-up of a party schooled support group, it was bloody and hard work, and I only had satisfaction on not being the first candidate eliminated on transferred votes.

    I was heading North on 9S97 on Friday and watched with trepidation the messages of things kicking off in Glasgow - a sort of traditional Old Firm social, mixed with the end of the month payday Friday/Saturday night, without the money for booze.

    Very telling tweet from Anas Sarwar, who 'inherited' his da's seat at Westminster, after a concerted effort by the Govan businessman to mobilise the Muslim vote when he ousted Jim Sillars (a neighbour saw the hordes being invited to visit Kier Hardie House and get processed to ensure they voted). He expressed a worry that the better together campaign, for which he lead a barnstorming tour seemed to be sharing common ground with the jingoistic crowd shouting Sieg Heil and singing Rule Brittania in Glasgow. Well Anas you got into bed with them to get the 55% result, now you'll have to face the consequences.

    Anas is of course my local MP, not by choice though, as we did have Gorgeous George, until the boundaries were rejigged (again) as the first attempt got rid of Woy and gave us George, who wore the right rosette but is very much his own man, and a fearsome debater in that cause.

    We have the instrument of change fresh in our hands but don't quite know what to do with it. Let's nurture it and keep that momentum going.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. gibbo
    Member

    My feeling is that any "powers" Scotland gets will be nice for the MSPs, but make no difference to our lives.

    And I also think Barnett will be reviewed.

    As for the "English votes for English issues", I agree. After all, what's good for the goose...

    Labour will fight this out of naked self-interest, but not be able to explain exactly why it's a bad thing.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Irvine Welsh: this glorious failure could yet be Scotland's finest hour

    "

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/20/irvine-welsh-scottish-independence-glorious-failure

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Anyone got a link to the timetable for further powers that was vowed to be put as a motion before Westminster before midnight on the 19th? I've googled all over and I just can't find it.

    Etc, etc, etc, etc.......etc.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. RJ
    Member

    He's not wrong:

    "Others in this disparate group, who want change, but decided to give the establishment one more chance, will be keenly looking south to see what is on offer. The Westminster parties now have to look closely at who the no voters are, especially the devo max ones they made the late pitch for. Many of them must now be at the limits of their patience, and they won't be remaining silently in that camp after any more fudges and broken promises."

    It's a damn sight easier being a principled "loser" than a compromised "winner".

    DAHIKT.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. gembo
    Member

    On tax raising powers I would like to see measures introduced which remove any barrier to this. Given that neither labour nor SNP invoked these powers perhaps the barriers are not legislative but tactical? Higher taxation seen as a vote loser?

    I would happily pay more tax if it could be ring fenced to improve the NHS or build more good quality social housing or protect education or build better cycling infrastructure.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. Greenroofer
    Member

    @gembo - I'd happily pay more tax for all the things on your list except cycling infrastructure. I think the existing transport budgets need to be re-allocated. £1.5bn brings a bridge beside an existing bridge or a lot of cycling infrastructure.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. LaidBack
    Member

    My daughter and her young friends are now discovering first hand that the parties in Westminster have really very little interest and are maybe even tired of Scotland.

    The result though does though seem to massively endorse the idea of Holyrood more - particularly as the No was sold in the end as a vote for increased powers aka Devo Max.

    Were any No voters really wanting to say 'No more powers'? Were any Yes voters wanting Devo Max? (With the idea that of you want to negotiate always ask for more than you will settle for).

    The sad part for younger voters is that all the old names and ghosts of government's past are now entering the debate with a desire to get this sorted and on to the real business - next year's UK elections. If they can't fix it they'll 'broaden the debate' to allow these silent voices from the 'forgotten corners' to join in. Scotland looks smaller today to me - just a corner of the UK. The media now moves on to its 'home' territory where it knows the rules with familiar faces. The odds are stacked against change with vested interests (yes we have Brain Souter here ... all parliaments have them ).

    I do accept that for many this was a debate they maybe didn't want to have. A desire to move on to more 'profitable' matters may occur quite quickly down south.

    Here in Scotland we have lots of new voices and I really hope they will continue to contribute.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. gembo
    Member

    @laidback

    I hope young people do stay engaged. I hope that many see that you do not have to be completely separate from England to try to build a better society.

    and a trickier one that many on here do not see my way - that being separate from England in a country led by Alex salmond then Nicola sturgeon would not lead to change merely a tartan version of Westminster,

    Some really tired and clunky thinking on telly to say that Westminster is corrupt and bloated but a magical new Holyrood would be a left green collective of free thinking radicals.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. Morningsider
    Member

    IWRATS, gembo - you might find the following useful. It explains what the UK Government is doing following the referendum. It also sets out the new tax powers for the Scottish Parliament, which come into force in 2016. These were introduced by the Scotland Act 2012.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scottish-independence-referendum-whats-next

    A press statement by Lord Smith, setting out how he intends to work, which is as close to a timetable as I can find:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-powers-for-scottish-parliament

    The current tax raising powers have never been used due to fear of their unpopularity, technical difficulty and administrative cock-up. See:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11792876

    EDIT - IWRATS, the UK Parliament is currently in recess. Nothing will happen there until Monday 13 October.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. gembo
    Member

    Thanks morningsider, very helpful

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. Instography
    Member

    In all the time I spent researching this, it seemed pretty clear to me that lots of No or undecided voters were really saying "Yes, but ..." and all the problems lay in the 'but' or more specifically in the pause between the but and the problem.

    If independence were a blank wall on which supporters got to write their own vision of what an independent Scotland would be, it was also blank for the uncertain and the opposed. In the face of the vague reassurances that rUK would cooperate on everything from currency to vehicle registration, the EU would hold the door open while we walk in (and fill our pockets with opt outs), they wrote their own vision of what independence represented.

    And then they mobilised. For all the talk of the grassroots movement of Yes, the No was a middle-class revolt. I'm looking at a list of councils sorted by turnout and the top end reads like a roll call of middle class commuters: East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, Stirling, South Lanarkshire, Falkirk, etc.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    Glasgow and west Dunbartonshire are the poorest regions of Scotland, no change under labour, SNP, devolved or Tories at Westminster. North Lanarkshire also poor so SIMD is a factor in regions with yes majority. Turnout lowest in Glasgow and Dundee which also needs an explanation.

    Posted 9 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.


Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin