"...no change under labour, SNP, devolved or Tories at Westminster."
Isn't that the point?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
And now? (Not the White Paper thread)
(693 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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Yes the point that I am trying to make that isn't agreed with here is that an SNP run independent Scotland would not have been any different either. The SNP could have raised taxation the powers have been there for a long time, as could the previous coalition.
Lots of Yes people said they weren't voting for the SNP but I think that is what the vote was about. E.g. the south west Yes campaigners at Ingliston were I think largely SNP whereas the No thanks took only non-labour to the poll.
So I would like to disentangle a need for a separate country to be formed from a desire for social justice. I want things in Scotland to be better for the less well off I also want this for people in other countries at the same time, not only if Scotland is a separate country.
More powers boils down to raising tax to pay for social justice. I am in favour.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@gembo: "I want things in Scotland to be better for the less well off I also want this for people in other countries at the same time, not only if Scotland is a separate country."
Indeed, absolutely.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Lots of Yes people said they weren't voting for the SNP but I think that is what the vote was about."
I don't really understand how you can believe that. YOU were the person convinced it would be No - not least because, you said, '20% of SNP voters were voting No'. Which may well be true due to some of Insto's observations above.
Plenty of people on here said their Yes was unrelated to the SNP, probably most were Green inclined, but some might like to see a 'proper' Labour Party.
"So I would like to disentangle a need for a separate country to be formed from a desire for social justice."
That's fine, but I'm sure you understand that the Referendum wouldn't have happened without the SNP - and (more importantly) that the 'people of Scotland' VOTED for an SNP majority Gov at Holyrood in spite of the fact that a one party winner was designed to be almost impossible by the Holyrood voting system.
In addition the last minute panic/timetable/vow/promises wouldn't have happened without the rogue poll which put Yes ahead.
"I want things in Scotland to be better for the less well off I also want this for people in other countries at the same time"
Ah motherhood and apple pie; I thought that's what you were accusing Yessers of...
"More powers boils down to raising tax to pay for social justice."
Perhaps - even if that somehow becomes politically possible. Remember - we can't 'go all Nordic'. That's so unBritish.
And after 30-odd years of neo-liberalism (and a No vote) isn't likely to change any time soon. Even/especially if Miliband gets in next year.
The SNP's answer was to extract every drop of NS oil and spend the tax take. There's a reasonable chance that a Scottish Gov would manage to invest it more wisely than the UK has.
In addition a Scottish Gov wants/needs a different immigration policy from rUK. Obviously now with a united Queendom more money will have to be paid to support all those pensioners (who 'all' voted No) rather than rely on an extra, younger, workforce.
It's possible that immigration policy will be devolved under some future FederalismLite versions of UK wide Devo. Though if we get pulled out of Europe, maybe not.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
So we have a real serious problem in education, but it turns out we have a serious problem in all government, for the same reason. It's become more centralized and we become complacent as people, as citizens of a democracy. We've allowed this to happen; where our government is somehow separated from us. And here in California we have this this horrible situation, where now we have the worst run state in the country
...
we need to create six new States, it does a lot for us. One is, our representative government becomes more a part of us, and we can take a real role in starting these new states and getting them, getting them going. And getting people excited about how those states could be run, how much better they can be run. And so many examples of that, where we could have electronic voting, we could have electronic signatures, we could have so many things that we can do by moving a state into the next century.
"
http://www.groco.com/american-dreams/tim_draper_on_six_californias.aspx
Population 38,340,000 (2014 est)
Posted 9 years ago # -
IWRATS: You mean this one?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Clearly Scotland doesn't need a different immigration policy from the rest of the UK - how can you have differential immigration needs in a single country?
Pensioners will just have to suck it up. They've had all their lives to save, I'd rather not get fleeced extra to subsidise them.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
@andrewpicken1: SNP press release says party membership has gone from 25,642 on Thursday at 5pm to 30,486 as of 3pm today. #indyref"
Posted 9 years ago # -
“
I know a little about resignations after you’ve lost a vote and let me thank Alex Salmond for a lifetime of service to Scotland and wish him and his wife an enjoyable and successful retirement from frontline politics. A formidable opponent, he leaves with the good wishes of all who have been his competitors, rivals, colleagues and friends.
"
http://gordonandsarahbrown.com/2014/09/gordon-browns-post-referendum-speech
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Clearly Scotland doesn't need a different immigration policy from the rest of the UK"
Well it does if it has a different view on economic activities/pandering to xenophobic voters...
"how can you have differential immigration needs in a single country?"
Dunno, perhaps you can't!
Posted 9 years ago # -
---
Scottish Greens
@scotgp
As of 4pm today, we've added 2,000 new members. Yeah, I said 2,000! Welcome, all!---
Including one Pat Kane, I understand.
Reports in the Hootsmon that SNP have recruited 3,000 new members in the same timeframe.
Posted 9 years ago # -
What does that add as a proportion, just to understand the context?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Sometimes I wish I had all my data at home. In the last poll, the proportion of SNP supporters voting No was much less than 20%.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
@patrickharvie: Many thanks to the volunteers in the office today, processing well over 1000 new memberships. Help keep them busy! http://t.co/Vqn9SOzAUW
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Insto, seems I was mistaken/misremembering the SNP figures.
---
Michael Gray
@GrayInGlasgow.@theSNP are up 5,000 members, @scotGP up 2,000 members in 48 hours. Context: Scotland Labour have 13,000 in total. http://ow.ly/BIRDc
---
That Labour figure is from four years ago, may be less now.
I seem to recall SNP have now increased from 25,000 to 30,000.
Ironically can't help with Scottish Green Party figures as I don't have them to hand. Do recall posting in this thread that in the months running up to #indyref membership grew by 60%, not sure what base figure was. That's excluding the new influx post-referendum.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
Thirdly, as stated above, the Yes movement seeks to make people think. It is our duty to continue to create a politically engaged, educated electorate. What Westminster want is a Yes movement that is so utterly deflated that it regresses into the shadows, it stops dreaming, it stops imagining that another Scotland is truly possible. - See more at:
"
http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/20/statement-how-we-won-and-how-we-will-win
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
@rossbrannigan95: @YouGov should do an #indyref follow up survey.would more vote yes now than pre referendum?
"
"
@debbiecohen21: sad to see everywhere people regretting their vote within 2 days #sadtimes #Indyref #scotland #independence #britain http://t.co/CVNeNkgUpz
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
Wow, seems to have been the best thing ever for the yes movement, losing the referendum. We should definitely gave another one tomorrow.
Or
We could all start working together for a better future? Unless that can only happen in an independent scotland
Posted 9 years ago # -
I think Kappers made it into the Guardian.
The morning after Scotland voted against independence
Posted 9 years ago # -
"We could all start working together for a better future?"
"We"?
"Unless that can only happen in an independent scotland"
So you don't believe GB will guarantee the "vow".
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
And he suggested he was deeply suspicious that the three leaders were already beginning to renege on the pledge – Miliband by appearing to break the unity between the three leaders and Cameron by refusing to commit to the promised timetable.Salmond revealed he had talked to the prime minister today (19 September) and had asked him to confirm he would stick to the original pledge, as set out by Gordon Brown, that there would be a Commons vote on the devo max plans in March.
"The prime minister said such a vote would be meaningless. I suspect he cannot guarantee the support of his party. And as we have already seen, the commons front between the Tories and Labour is starting to break," Salmond said.
He also said any suggestion the Westminster leaders were indeed backing away from the pledge, for whatever reason, would prompt an angry backlash in Scotland.
His scepticism has been sparked partly by Ed Miliband's decision not to agree with the prime minister's plan to devolve powers to the nations and regions on the same timetable as for Scotland.
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
@crowriver
Saw on twitter.MartynMcL: According to @scotgp members, in '98 its membership was 350; in '09 it was 1,000. But in last 48 hours alone it's had 2,000 new members join
So that's a bit of a surge. And brings with it the inevitable, if welcome, problem of integrating and retaining a lot of new people. It's a long time since I was in a party but I imagine most of it is still pretty dull and routine and these people are looking for something to do to fill the gap that the referendum leaves. Jings, I'm missing it already as an armchair observer. Activists must be climbing the walls. Hope it works out.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Nick agrees with Gordon -
"
The Conservatives, in their rush to protect themselves from an attack from the right, are only concerned about English votes on English matters. Of course we need a solution to this dilemma but, by appearing to link it to the delivery of further devolution to Scotland, they risk reneging on the commitment made to the Scottish people that, in the event of a No vote, new powers would come what may.
"
http://www.libdems.org.uk/nick_clegg_this_opportunity_cannot_be_hijacked
Posted 9 years ago # -
@Insto, I think the membership of Scottish Greens increased in 2010 after the Tories got in at Westminster. Certainly that's when I joined, and I know at conference that year there were a good number of new members. So there have been "surges" before, but nothing on this scale! Don't forget too that there were lots of new folk joining before the referendum, in the run up to it: I know two from my children's school who did that, for example.
All these new folk joining can only be for the good: fresh ideas, more folk available to campaign, canvass, leaflet, and so on. Retention in the short term probably not a big problem as we've two elections comng up: next year's Westminster election and Holyrood the year after. So there will be plenty to do!
Posted 9 years ago # -
Girl??
Suitably patronising from the Sunday Post there!
A shame Ruth Davidson and Johann Lamont weren't the other way round IMO. I am not sure that Jim Murphy is a good idea!
Posted 9 years ago # -
"I am not sure that Jim Murphy is a good idea!"
He's not entirely popular on Twitter either -
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@paulo_car: @NicolaSturgeon @berwell @theSNP I voted for Jim Murphy at the last election, if he comes to my door next time it will be slammed shut.
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/17/6-reasons-independence-will-benefit-the-green-movement
Obviously written pre-Referendum, but the ideas will be part of 'new discussion'.
Posted 9 years ago # -
From that National Collective article:
Similarly, when given the chance to get involved in participatory democracy, people tend to make pretty good choices.
So they are accepting the No vote then?
(Sorry, a bit snarky but I couldn't resist)
Posted 9 years ago #
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