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And now? (Not the White Paper thread)

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  1. gembo
    Member

    @insto, nice link to festinger. Obviously the concept of an independent Scotland (different for various people within the broad Yes campaign) is more realistic than the cult festinger was studying. Without wishing to upset anyone the parallels are there. However, the research itself would explain why the group being studied would reject this analysis.

    Just to sum up the past three years. There is scope to think that the Scottish people will accept SNP running Scotland as a devolved country. However, the majority of Scottish population do not want Independence. Regardless of state apparatus in the background, about 60/40 of the people I spoke to all over south west Edinburgh said they were voting No. When asked if they would like a poster for the window they declined. A silent majority. Very few don't knows. Time now to move on.?

    Good to see people getting involved in politics by joining political parties. Hopefully this activity will involve contributing to running the country rather than trying to persuade 55per cent of the population they were wrong?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @gembo

    Hopefully this activity will involve contributing to running the country rather than trying to persuade 55per cent of the population they were wrong?

    That's maybe the nub of our matter right there? I found myself obliged to adopt the mantle of splittist zealotry precisely because I could not, within the present framework, meaningfully contribue to running the country while the lords, bishops and remembrancer remain in parliament.

    My thinking is steeped in my scientific education. Ideas exist essentially to be disproved through argument and experiment. All ideas currently held by both the 45 and the 55 percent groups are wrong. I see no reason to respect either set of ideas and will continue to argue my case with both groups.

    Interesting artice, the Mother Jones one. It had just occurred to me as I wrote to my delegate at the Westminster parliament over breakfast that the British state is just like a death cult in some respects. We've been dropping explosives from aeroplanes onto the inhabitants of the Euphrates and Tigris basins on and off for almost one hundred years now. Things keep getting worse there and they hate us more and more, but our state appears to be convinced that there is a quantity of explosives which can be dropped that will make everything alright. Quite insane.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/29/2015-general-election-multi-party-coalition-ukip-snp

    Posted 9 years ago #

  4. LaidBack
    Member

    "but our state appears to be convinced that there is a quantity of explosives which can be dropped that will make everything alright. Quite insane."

    Not only UK though but NL, Denmark and others are joining in with around 6 planes each it seems.

    So many civilians are bound to die as targets become harder to find. TV showing the usual nonsense re-runs of 'surgical' strikes.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  5. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    The descent into madness begins;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

    Posted 9 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    Interesting times.

    "

    It’s in our hands to change Scotland for the better.

    "

    http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2014/09/ruth-time-reset-scotland

    "

    Rick Nye, of Populus, who conducted internal polling for the No campaign, revealed that the promise of substantial additional powers – signed by the three main Westminster party leaders on the front of the Daily Record – was critical to the outcome of the referendum.

    He said: “To turn these voters away from Yes, it took the guarantee of extra powers for the Scottish Parliament.”

    "

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scots-tory-leader-ruth-davidson-4342705

    Posted 9 years ago #

  7. gibbo
    Member

    The descent into madness begins;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

    Quote:

    "Former Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown has called for 100,000 Scots to sign a petition urging Westminster to keep promises on devolution."

    Unless I missed it, Westminster never made any promises.

    4 MPs made promises... based on their belief that they could get most of the remaining 646 MPs to go along with it.

    As far as I know, no-one consulted the 646.

    What we're finding now is that some of the 646 - particularly those representing English constituencies - aren't happy to sign a deal that benefits Scotland unless they get something in return for their own constituents.

    That seems reasonable to me. (And the 4 should have seen this coming, because I certainly did.)

    Posted 9 years ago #

  8. Dave
    Member

    I'd be quite happy for Scots MPs to be barred from any vote which nominally impacts England only. We don't let English MPs vote on devolved issues which impact their constituents (tuition fees for English students leaps to mind).

    If it stuffs Labour up, what can they expect? They made their bed, they can lie in it.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @gibbo

    That our dear BBC failed to question the mechanism whereby the opposition backbench MP for Kirkcaldy made constitutional commitments apparently on behalf of the Crown-in-Parliament is reason enough for rage on the part of all UK citizens.

    One of the people that I canvassed but failed to turn to Yes promised that he would 'be out on the streets' with me if the extra powers failed to materialise lickety-split. I will go back to invite him to join our Forty Five group shortly.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  10. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Dave

    Any decision that affects spending in England affects Scotland through the Barnett formula. It's hard to think what a pure 'England only' issue could be.

    Until England is recognised as a nation with a parliament separate from Westminster the whole thing is a dog's breakfast.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    "our dear BBC failed to question the mechanism whereby the opposition backbench MP for Kirkcaldy made constitutional commitments apparently on behalf of the Crown-in-Parliament"

    Don't think it was entirely BBC's job/responsibility to do that.

    It seemed odd from the start that GB was willing/able/ALLOWED to put forward 'his' proposals/Vow.

    At the time it seemed odd, to say the least.

    Now it seems that GB was stitched up by the London 'establishment' and (presumably) he just thought they were being nice to him...

    Did AD ask him to get involved??

    Presumably the petition nonsense is due to him realising he has been used.

    So if/when things go wrong, will GB join the SNP???

    Posted 9 years ago #

  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @chdot

    You are correct. The Prime Minister should also have told Gordon Brown to mind his own business, but he was openly partisan in our affair whereas the BBC has an actual legal duty to inform us of things like former Prime Ministers appointing themselves to curious new constitutional positions.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  13. condor2378
    Member

    https://twitter.com/ClatchardCraig/status/515907995868626945

    Posted 9 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    @ condor

    O he is such a card!

    Posted 9 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    "You are correct"

    Everyone has to be sometimes.

    'What really happened' will come out sooner or later.

    Either it was all GB's idea and 'No' was desperate for anything or he was approached with 'can you front this for us'.

    Whatever happened, Cameron was obviously told (if he hadn't realised all along) that 'the backbenchers won't go along with that' - hence the 'English votes' stuff at 7am after the Referendum result.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  16. gibbo
    Member

    @chdot:

    Now it seems that GB was stitched up by the London 'establishment'

    Brown presumably must have known that any promises he made couldn't be delivered without the agreement of hundreds of other MPs... who had never expressed any agreement.

    I suspect it's a case of a politician who is willing to say anything in order to get the votes he wants - and worries about holding up his side of the bargain later.

    (Or, in the case of the EU Constitution referendum, doesn't worry and just signs the thing under a different name.)

    Also, it's worth pointing out that, prior to the day of the referendum, some Tory backbenchers were already predicting a "bloodbath" when the "vow" reached the Commons:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098825/David-Cameron-faces-Tory-bloodbath-over-unfair-cash-for-Scotland.html">
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098825/David-Cameron-faces-Tory-bloodbath-over-unfair-cash-for-Scotland.html

    I don't remember Brown blowing the whistle over this and asking people to disregard the vow.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  17. Morningsider
    Member

    Nothing too surprising about this. Gordon Brown is simply acting in favour of the UK Labour Party. He is the man behind the feeble Scottish Labour devolution proposals. These were kept feeble for two reasons:

    1. Protect the number of Scottish MPs - the assumption being these will always be Labour. "Too much" devolution and you have to deal with the West Lothian question.
    2. Many Scottish Labour MPs dislike the Scottish Parliament.

    In effect, Gordon Brown is asking people to sign a petition to ensure that "too much" power is not devolved to the Scottish Parliament, to protect the number of Scottish MPs. Good luck with that!

    I take this as a positive sign that the Smith Commission might actually be more effective than many people think. Certainly, all the other parties seem more positive about it than Labour - as they aren't in power anywhere, their views can be over-ridden (to a reasonable extent).

    Posted 9 years ago #

  18. crowriver
    Member

    Why anyone believed the son of the manse's wild eyed promises is beyond me. As for the vow "signed" by leaders of the unionist parties, well it wasn't worth the fake parchment it was printed on.

    Some wee positives amidst the storm of disillusion: Lord Smith is inviting ordinary voters to contribute to his commission. Yes, that's you (and me). How our views will be taken into account is not exactly clear, but hey, let's not quibble over details like procedures, process and democracy.

    You can e-mail the commission here:

    http://www.smith-commission.scot/contact/

    Posted 9 years ago #

  19. Dave
    Member

    Any decision that affects spending in England affects Scotland through the Barnett formula. It's hard to think what a pure 'England only' issue could be

    Even in a post-Barnett world, decisions made in England would impact Scotland. For instance, an English parliament might vote to build a big shipyard and stuff up whatever is left on the Clyde.

    They might decide to build a ton of nuclear plants just on the English side of our border.

    On the other hand, every time a (Labour) government uses Scots votes to force through something which predominantly impacts 60m English people rather than 6m Scots, democracy is failing. Fairer for us to take one for the team here IMO.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "

    FURTHER devolution promised for Holyrood in the wake of the referendum must include new powers for Edinburgh and other councils to influence their local economies, a member of the commission addressing the issue has said.

    City councillor Maggie Chapman, who is also co-convener of the Scottish Greens, is one of her party’s two representatives on the cross-party body set up under Lord Smith of Kelvin to produce joint proposals on what new powers should be transferred from Westminster to the Scottish Parliament.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/devolution-panel-member-in-call-for-council-powers-1-3558812

    Posted 9 years ago #

  21. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Our media failed us spectacularly this year, so many people are thinking about how to create new media;

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/30/a-better-media-is-possible/

    http://derekbateman.co.uk/2014/09/25/were-better-together/

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/and-now-for-something-serious/

    Wouldn't it be astonishing if the quality of discussion in newspapers and TV in our country came anywhere near the quality of CCE?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  22. crowriver
    Member

    Maggie Chapman was a member of the Commission on Strengthening Local Democracy, which reported its findings in August. Download the report here:

    http://www.localdemocracy.info/2014/08/14/time-to-rebuild-scottish-democracy-what-the-referendum-decides/

    This is, in my view, a vision to get behind and campaign for.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  23. acsimpson
    Member

    I may be missing the point but why is a new media with a new bias any better than an old media with an old bias.

    Surely the problem is that the media is biased rather than what that particular bias is.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @acsimpson

    Your point is addressed directly (better than I ever could) in the first link.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations (SCVO) has circulated this across the country:

    “Dear colleagues,

    I am writing to encourage you to contribute to the further development of devolution in Scotland.

    Lord Smith has asked SCVO to gather initial third sector views and proposals on the future powers of the Scottish Parliament. What priorities do we have and which powers are needed to address them?

    We have been given a very short window in which to respond. Our deadline is 8 October, so I very much hope that you are able to spend some time setting out your views.
    But we also think it’s important that this is not the beginning and end of the matter. At SCVO, we believe that the people and communities which we all serve need to have a more central role in these discussions and in the governance of Scotland more generally. More of the same won’t do.

    So we will not be bound by the timetable set out by politicians in the run-up to the referendum. We intend to work with our members and with trade unions, students, faith groups and others on how to renew and reinvigorate our democracy.
    I very much hope that you will want to be part of this work.

    To contribute your views to the Smith Commission, please email felix [dot] spittal [at] scvo [dot] org [dot] uk by 6 October.”

    PLEASE NOTE THE TIGHT TIMESCALES

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The leader of the Scottish Tory party has refused to rule out the possibility of a pact between Conservatives and the Scottish National party (SNP) at Westminster if David Cameron does not win enough votes to command a majority in parliament in the 2015 elections.

    "

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/30/scottish-tory-leader-refuses-rule-out-pact-snp-hung-parliament

    Posted 9 years ago #

  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Did cheeky Ruth rule out a coalition with UKIP? She's got it made as leader of a well-funded rump party and list MSP. She can basically say whatever she likes with no consequence whatsoever.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  28. gembo
    Member

    vote for ukip in england is a vote for labour according to tories

    Posted 9 years ago #

  29. Instography
    Member

    Differently biased media isn't a problem. There's plenty of differently biased media. The question is whether a differently biased mass media is possible.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  30. gembo
    Member

    Sounds like Greg Philo 1984 and his books Bad News and Really Bad News. So as that was thirty years ago, I am afraid the answer is No.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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