I am now boiling with rage against the entire British political class. They are bankrupt and should be liquidated by administrators appointed by the creditors. How did the House of Lords ever manage to lose touch with the housing estates of Middlesburgh? We should be told.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)
(3979 posts)-
Posted 8 years ago #
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Trump also predicted the unraveling of the EU, saying, “It looks like it’s on its way and we’ll see what happens.” Trump said he knows many Germans who are fanatically patriotic — “to a level you wouldn’t believe” — and that, fed up with immigration, he could see them supporting a German exit, a move that would deprive the union of its most important member.
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http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/trump-brexit-scotland-visit-224761
Posted 8 years ago # -
Hmm. Germans who are fanatically patriotic. See what we've unleashed.
I agree IWRATS all the political class is bankrupt. For decades they've been whinging from the side about the EU with never a good word. Then you start to get Labour people saying things like "it's not racist to talk about immigration." And you just allow all these people to blame the "other" for all their woes. I don't so much blame the voters, but I do blame the politicians and the opinion formers (newspapers).
In England only the Greens and Lib Dems were honourable but no one listens to them.
Posted 8 years ago # -
This is the inequitable impact of the 2008 banking collapse working its way through the political system, combined with the most privileged and selfish generation the world has ever seen, the babyboomers, pulling up the drawbridge to their retirement home.
The incredibly frustrating thing is that the discontent has been targeted on the wrong bogeyman and the people who have been conned by the Brexit camp's cloudcuckooland promises will pay the bulk of the price.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Oh, and on City Deals - that's pretty much George Osborne's baby. Once he goes, who's to say they'll still be there? And that includes the Northern Powerhouse. Well done the suburban and rural north of England.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Our brothers and sisters in London have taken direct action against Prime Minister Johnston;
Posted 8 years ago # -
Politicos of all hues today have talked about bringing society back together. It's as if we've had a mild disagreement about who could have the last glass of ginger beer and the final morsel of cream bun.
A friend who lives and works in Wales told me today that his colleagues engaged in a latter-day witch hunt to find those who voted the 'wrong' way. When no-one could be found the accusations and whispering started. HR intervened with stern warnings and a threat of Straight-to-P45s for anyone stepping out of line. He works for a major insurance firm. Underwriters don't strike me as knuckle dragging mob rule types. It's going to be a long road. Reading the comments on the Edinburgh City Deal article affirms that suspicion.
Posted 8 years ago # -
So when do we open the IndyRef2 thread?
Posted 8 years ago # -
saying things like "it's not racist to talk about immigration."
Well, it isn't racist to actually discuss immigration (like, maybe talk about the historical reasons the UK is a popular destination for immigrants - hint, it's the same thing that made us rich, what with us, you know, having an EMPIRE and all (& casually making up national boundaries around the world in cahoots with other European powers etc. etc. etc.), the many contributions, financial & otherwise, made to UK society by imigrants, the ways that cultural conflict can be minimised or eliminated without demonising anyone), but I agree there seems little chance of that actually happening...
Posted 8 years ago # -
Anyone who engages in politics must now talk about immigration. Not to do so would be dangerous to the point of folly.
There are people in Scotland whose presence has made me proud and humble just to talk to them - Mr Urbanska the ancient Polish leather worker in Lauriston Street for instance, whose life story is so extraordinary that I think he actually has more right to be here than I do. If I didn't fight to protect his residency then I would have to hold my own manhood cheap.
On the other hand I've worked in offices where departments have been outsourced wholesale to contractors from the sub-continent who do not speak English at work and who do not mix with the local staff. I'm always curious as to how they obtained work permits, there not currently being any acute shortage of IT graduates. What effect on social cohesion was anticipated by the people who thought it was a good idea?
If we can't talk openly about that kind of difference and all the shades of grey in between we are in trouble.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Looking at some of the comments here, I want to make a point...
Whenever you get an issue that divides the country down the middle - and that could be Brexit, or Indy, or even a general election in a two-party system - the fact that each side has almost 50% support means that each side has a valid case.
That's because 50% of people aren't stupid. 50% of people aren't racist. 50% of people aren't selfish and only in it for themselves.
But that's how many Bremainers are defining this choice: That all the smart sophisticated people voted Remain, and all the Brexit voters are stupid, uneducated and racist people.
It's an incredibly arrogant way of looking at this result.
And, frankly, no different to those people in England who portray the 45% who supported independence as delusional anglophobes who spend every evening getting drunk while re-watching Braveheart.
Posted 8 years ago # -
And what of Mr Cameron? The man who, it's reported, said he wanted to be Prime Minister 'Because I think I’d be rather good at it'.
It would appear that this man has actually managed to bring the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to an end. We seem to be living in the first days of the former UKGB&NI, Yugoslavia style.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The function of private education is to get the children of the rich into jobs for which they are not the best candidates. If you're looking for somewhere to send machinegun-wielding policemen to root out threats to national security then I humbly suggest Eton, Fettes and Harrow.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I was cycling to st tam's the other day and went by that leather work shop. Never clocked it before.
Many waves of migration to Britain, Irish, Italian, West Indian, Indian sub-continent. Much violence towards the migrants
Watched a news report from Boston in Lincolnshire last night. The locals are 75per cent brexit, so technically there can't be that many migrants. There was one polish shop which was getting the blame for a traditional bakers closing which was utter tosh. The town did look run down
Posted 8 years ago # -
A million scots voted brexit. So those affected by austerity, living in rural or urban poverty away from the cities etc? Or tactical by some (not in Edinburgh)?
Might have swung the UK vote if it had been more like the devolution landslide?
Posted 8 years ago # -
@gembo "A million scots voted brexit"
Indeed - although I have not met one person who voted Brexit yet, perhaps I am one of the Edinburgh bourgeois people that the idiot David Coburn referred to?
Your point about the rural / urban poverty issue is probably true - also older people, anecdotally a few friends know their parents voted to leave and I suspect mine did too.
Its incredible to think that Remain only needed to persuade some 750000 people to stay in the EU
Although Cameron is hugely culpable in this mess, lets not forget how pointless Labour have become nationally. Corbyn has been totally useless and practically invisible since his appointment.
One thing that has become obvious in the last few months is the rather excellent Scottish female politicians we have - of all flavours. Sturgeon, Davidson and Kez Dugdale are all streets ahead of many of their male Westminster counterparts.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Dumfries and Galloway 53per cent remain
Corbyn does not fit the media mould so he does not get reported on. He was out and about in his 7/10 way meeting his own supporters but despite being millions of miles away from Tony Blair he is still Islington labour. Traditional labour vote in the midlands and north of England swung the referendum brexit when combined with the usual Tory suspects in south east and south west of England.
Nicola sturgeon looks perfectly sensible when compared with farage, Johnston, gove.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I think the Brexit vote is largely an expression of English nationalism. Scots have had a clear avenue to express discontent with "the Westminster elite" since 1999 - vote SNP in Scottish Parliament elections. The SNP has been around for years and is a sophisticated, inclusive political party. Yes, English voters have had the option of UKIP over the past few elections, but they have always been too toxic for many people to really break into the mainstream.
The referendum was really the first chance many English people have had at the ballot box to kick the "elite", and many have chosen to do so. Are they all idiots? I doubt there are more English idiots than Scottish - so the answer is clearly no. I would argue this is simply an English reflection of what has been happening in Scotland (and across Europe/USA) over the past few years.
My concern about the immigration debate is really about the word "immigration" - this has been used by some people as an acceptable term for clearly racist or xenophobic views. I agree with IWRATS that there is a real issue to be worked out here, but I think that in the current climate this will be near impossible.
Posted 8 years ago # -
The only Brexit voters I know here personally are English (from the North West) who had partly swallowed a lot of misinformation (we don't vote for the European parliament apparently) but were also reflecting fears of European immigrants overwhelming services in England, and benefit tourism. Interestingly they weren't anti-refugee at all and saw that it was totally a separate issue. And it was also interesting that their choice was largely altruistic - they saw that we weren't personally affected by immigration but were voting to help others who were (in their eyes).
That said, our young Scottish neighbour also says that some of her (presumably also young and local) friends were voting Brexit so it's not just the English diaspora doing it in D&G
Posted 8 years ago # -
The only leave voters I know personally were highly educated - 2 university lecturers and an Anglican priest with a PhD in philosophy. Two of them may be lefties; the third more anarcho-communitarian / anti-liberal. (Ie so far right he might as well be left). All English though.
Still strongest correlation remains - level of education x vote.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@morninsider, I like the term migration as in economic migration it goes both ways Spain and France full of British people etc
@srd, to quote Ralph mctell, Let me take you by the hand and lead you through the streets of London. Oh wait, I am middle class this past thirty years now and no longer move in low rent areas. Ah but if you sign up to support Dundee United we can all go to Easter road when they play Hibs and park our bikes east of the stadium to allow for an exit not funnelled across the wee railway bridge with the casuals waiting to give us a doing.?
Posted 8 years ago # -
@Morningsider
I think the Brexit vote is largely an expression of English nationalism. Scots have had a clear avenue to express discontent with "the Westminster elite" since 1999 - vote SNP in Scottish Parliament elections.
Does that have to be "English nationalism"? Couldn't it just be a normal human response to being ignored and told what to do?
And isn't that the exact same drive that led to Western democracy in the first place?
but I think that in the current climate this will be near impossible.
I'd suggest the #1 obstacle to working through things is that one side is determined to portray the other as mouth-breathing idiots...
Compare that to what happened in Scotland, where after the vote, the Yes voters didn't go around calling No voters cowards and quislings.
And imagine what would have happened to our country if they did.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"if you sign up to support Dundee United we can all go to Easter road when they play Hibs"
Maybe simpler to buy a ticket for the Hibs end?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Compare that to what happened in Scotland, where after the vote, the Yes voters didn't go around calling No voters cowards and quislings.
Perhaps not on here, "we're" a bit more civilised than most of the web but the grief and abuse I got from some Facebook friends (since disowned) for not voting Yes was very much present.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Well what a roller coaster that was.
I was very glad and relieved yesterday morning to watch Nicola Sturgeon's speech: calm rational leadership and reassurance which was very much needed. The failure of leadership south of the border has been a major factor in creating this crisis in the first place.
It was really fascinating being out and about yesterday. Everybody is talking about Brexit: I mean everyone. Parents at the primary school; shop assistants; people on the street.
My random sample from perambulations yesterday: A parent who was firmly No in 2014 says he will vote Yes in IndyRef2 because he "can't stay with people who voted for economic suicide"; A young woman at the till in TKMaxx who described the referendum as "a nightmare" and felt powerless to do anything about it; The staff at the fish counter at Sainsbury's having a quite loud discussion I overheard asking why anyone would vote Leave; The Dutch/Scottish couple I bought something from second hand who, as soon as I arrived to pick it up, immediately said they were both wondering which country they were going to live in...
It was a really open moment where I felt able to talk to these folk about the situation. Sometimes it felt like I was trying to reassure people that Scotland was "different" because we voted to stay, we would find a way.
Interesting Times indeed.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Hold on to your polystyrene bicycle hats everyone. Here we go.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Some former No voters were a bit upset about it yesterday.
I was able to cheer them up with the harmonica part from Love Me Do.
At least I think they were cheered up. They didn't seem to know Special Brew by Bad Manners.
Luckily the harmonica recital meant I was able to avoid saying, "Well ye know noo!". Which was nice.
Posted 8 years ago #
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