CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)

(3191 posts)
  • Started 5 years ago by I were right about that saddle
  • Latest reply from I were right about that saddle

  1. crowriver
    Member

    It suits the Tories to force Ireland to impose a border. Then they can turn round and blame Ireland and the EU for breaking the Good Friday Agreement. While simultaneously waving the union flag and appealing to British nationalism.

    When border controls are imposed at Calais etc. they will blame it on France and the EU.

    Nothing bad that happens will be their fault, they are the victims, the spineless foreigners want to deny plucky Brits their birthright as swashbuckling free traders and rulers of Empire.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    The reality is the UK has so far left the EU in only the most technical of senses. Yes, there was a departure on January 31 but the transition period, which runs out on December 31, has kept everything as it was in terms of the benefits of European single market membership. Thank goodness it has, given the grim economic fallout from the human tragedy that is the coronavirus pandemic.

    It is after the UK is ripped out of the single market, something the Conservatives have confirmed in recent weeks that they will do on December 31 with or without a free-trade deal, that the realities of the situation will be felt.

    Giving the “policy context” for the information campaign, the Cabinet Office document states: “The priority for the end of the Transition Period (by 31 December 2020) is for the UK to recover its political and economic independence and to seize the new opportunities as we move forward as a sovereign nation. Whether our relationship with the EU is like Canada’s or Australia’s, we will be leaving the single market and the customs union at the end of the year. This will bring some disruption. It will also bring great opportunities.”

    The first bit is the same tiresome ideology we have been hearing from Conservative Brexiters for so long, a message that has been like ambrosia and nectar to the Leavers. It is interesting, however, to see the concession that there will be “some disruption”. Oh, and there is the reference again to the “great opportunities”. Where are they?

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/18536949.ian-mcconnell-leavers-might-not-see-negative-brexit-effects-wonder/

    Posted 3 months ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

  4. chdot
    Admin


    An HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) document marked “sensitive”, seen by the Guardian, reveals that firms in Great Britain will be obliged to complete three rounds of customs, security and transit forms on all goods.

    The electronic documents will need to be completed whether there is a Brexit trade deal or not and will apply to all suppliers.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/02/first-details-emerge-of-system-for-checks-on-goods-crossing-irish-sea

    Posted 3 months ago #
  5. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    There is power in a Union.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    Brexit once dominated our politics; now it is barely mentioned. The Conservative landslide last December seemed to settle it. Many of the Tory MPs who would have raised the coming no-deal threat have been purged. Keir Starmer is wary of raising it: he has his eye on leave seats, and is in no hurry to play the diehard remainer. He didn’t even press the government to seek an extension to the transition.

    The result is a double danger to this country. A hurricane is coming, and yet we are blithely choosing this of all moments to sail off into uncharted waters, all alone.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/03/coronavirus-boris-johnson-no-deal-brexit-pandemic

    Posted 2 months ago #
  7. I were right about that saddle
    Member

  8. chdot
    Admin

  9. chdot
    Admin

  10. chdot
    Admin

  11. chdot
    Admin

    The Anglo-Saxon world is not so different from Poland and Hungary. Britain has handled Covid-19 so disastrously because only servile nobodies, willing to pretend that a no-deal Brexit would not harm the country, could gain admittance to Boris Johnson’s cabinet. As Johnson politicises the public sector, showing “fear of the liar” looks like becoming the best way to secure a job in the higher ranks of the civil service as well. American Republicans have had to go along with every lie Trump has told since his birther slur on Barack Obama.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jul/12/anne-applebaum-how-my-old-friends-paved-the-way-for-trump-and-brexit

    Posted 2 months ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    British business faces £7bn red tape bill under Brexit border plan

    https://www.ft.com/content/fbc6f191-6d69-4dcb-b374-0fa6e48a9a1e

    Posted 2 months ago #
  13. Morningsider
    Member

    As predicted by...checks notes...HMRC, part of the UK Government, in 2019:

    ...the administrative burden on UK businesses from additional import and export declarations is £6.5 billion

    Posted 2 months ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    Time can play tricks. But some of us can distinctly recall Boris Johnson and Michael Gove reassuring the country back in 2016 that not only would the UK retain access to the single market after Brexit, but that we’d also end up with a better deal. So it was somewhat disconcerting to hear the chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster making a statement, outlining the government’s exciting £705m “let’s get going” advertising campaign, in which he basically told the Commons that everything we now got for free and with no hassle was about to get a whole lot more expensive and time-consuming.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/13/gove-delivers-lorry-load-of-oven-ready-brexit-with-no-ingredients

    Posted 2 months ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    Ministers unveil post-Brexit powers for UK nations

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53423123

    Posted 2 months ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    “Firms reeling from the economic consequences of coronavirus are poorly placed to prepare for Brexit: in many cases, they’re in a worse position than in the months leading up to the potential no-deal in October 2019. As the government’s own data shows, the majority of firms have not even begun to prepare.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/18/no-deal-brexit-poorly-prepared-companies-coronavirus

    Posted 2 months ago #
  17. LaidBack
    Member

    @chdot - BBC at it's best. I think the word 'claim' should be in here :-)

    These are all powers we have already.

    Scotland should keep to higher standards and we can sell produce anywhere surely?


      (The UK Gov claims that...)
      Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are set to be handed powers in areas such as air quality and animal welfare currently regulated at EU level.

      But in a bid to protect cross-border trade, they will have to recognise standards drawn up elsewhere in the UK.
      (ie Accept lower standards so England can get a trade deal with USA - eg GM foods are banned here at moment.)

      The SNP says the plan would "strip power" from the Scottish Parliament.
      (They are right - that's the idea)

    Posted 2 months ago #
  18. LaidBack
    Member

    Rejoice! Pound should have parity with Euro soon. Convergence has been achieved.

    "The Telegraph reports that Downing Street has ditched any pretense that an agreement is likely.

    The Government had said it was targeting a tariff and quota free trade deal, but expects to leave on World Trade Organisation terms on December 31, guaranteeing complicated trade requirements which are forecast to cause huge delays.

    The latest round of Brexit talks began in London this week but are expected to end today in deadlock, with both sides still in disagreement over fishing rights, the European Court of Justice, governance of the deal and level playing field guarantees."

    Posted 2 months ago #
  19. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    A WTO/single market for goods border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland is an excellent idea. (Said Satan, Shiva, the guy on the pale horse, Loki, Baʿal and the four riders of the Apocalypse.)

    Still, democracy in action, innit?

    Posted 2 months ago #
  20. neddie
    Member

    The only way this country's going to learn its mistake is the hard way, I'm afraid

    Posted 2 months ago #
  21. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Unfortunately in the context of Brexit the phrase 'this country' needs clarification.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  22. neddie
    Member

    OK, but if England won't allow us to have another independence referendum, what will Scotland then do?

    Posted 2 months ago #
  23. unhurt
    Member

    This is INSANITY.

    Every time I take a break from thinking about Brexit when I return it hits me anew. Just because we've gotten used to it doesn't make it normal or OK.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  24. davecykl
    Member

    A new campaign to rejoin our EU has been launched in Scotland today:

    "eu+me believes that all parts of the UK would continue to benefit from maintaining links they already have to the EU. Links that have laid the foundation for the peace, prosperity and opportunity that we have all enjoyed for half a century.

    As a network of pro-Europeans, eu+me aims to influence the debate and put the foundations in place to ensure future generations enjoy the benefits of the closest cooperation with the EU and its member states.

    We hope this will lay the groundwork for re-joining the EU in the future."

    https://www.euandme.com/

    http://www.twitter.com/EUandMeCampaign/
    https://www.facebook.com/euandmecampaign/

    Posted 2 months ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    “Just because we've gotten used to it“

    Except that, essentially, it hasn’t happened yet.

    I’m sure there are people who are glad CV came along as it will confuse people about how much ‘Brexit’ is responsible for future (imminent) problems.

    As a spectator sport I’m looking forward to seeing how Boris/Gov deals with fronting the next ‘austerity’ which can’t be called Austerity.

    I think few people have much concept of how much CV will adversely affect many people - especially if they become unemployed.

    Any suggestion that Full Brexit (from 1.1.21) will make things noticeable better will stretch credulity.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  26. unhurt
    Member

    "it" in this case was "the idea it's happening" not the post-no-deal reality.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    if England won't allow us to have another independence referendum, what will Scotland then do?

    There is no 'if'. They won't. What will Scotland do? I don't know. Sullen resentment is a core part of our national heritage.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    “not the post-no-deal reality”

    Ah, ok.

    Problem is, no one STILL really knows what Brexit is/will be in practice.

    ‘No deal’ seems to be likely, so that’s WTO(?)

    No (specific) agreements with the rest of the world(?)

    Countries worldwide just dying to have simple, post EU, trade with the UK(?)

    So that’s the EU with extra tariffs and paperwork, the ever loyal Commonwealth, China, USA - subject to certain conditions which the UK will (apparently) be forcing on Scotland.

    But it’s fine, any problems will be blamed on Covid.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  29. crowriver
    Member

    "targeting a tariff and quota free trade deal"

    I hear the sound of targets becoming "shared aspirations"...

    Posted 2 months ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    With less than six months to go before the UK leaves the EU’s single market and customs union, the department is also casting for a new director general for trade relations and implementation to lead 800 staff, act as “ambassador for UK trade policy at the highest levels” and build “a pipeline of candidates for future free trade agreements”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/23/uk-trade-department-to-tackle-fake-news-with-new-rebuttal-expert-role

    Posted 2 months ago #

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