CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)

(3979 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by I were right about that saddle
  • Latest reply from LaidBack

  1. Morningsider
    Member

    IWRATS - I'm sure the foreign diplomats will be, well - diplomatic with the Scottish Government. However, the UK is the member state and that it where all the action will be. Quite a few members states have regions wishing to break away - they won't be wanting to encourage that by giving Scotland any special treatment.

    Gibbo - I called it English nationalism, as it seems clear to me that large parts of England want some form of self rule - something that London, Northern Ireland and Scotland already benefit from.

    Also, I'm pretty sure there was (is) considerable rancour from Yes voters following the Scottish referendum.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    My simple understanding is that fearing/disliking foreigners is xenophobic, fearing/disliking people because of the colour of their skin/national origin is racist.

    Additionally there are other problems related to gender/sexual orientation/class/religion/other(ness).

    Being upset because your town/neighbourhood is being swamped/overrun/taken over by 'new people' is not (necessarily) about racism or xenophobia. Is just another variation on Nimbyism.

    If you live in a nice Green Belt village, the chances are that you'll object to a new housing estate (it might well be that it's almost identical to the one you've been living in for the last 20 years). If it's a council estate (unlikely these days) or intended for refugees, you might fight it harder - or stop objecting (as long as the school, health service and active travel provisions are built in).

    It seems that "immigration" played a large part in many people's voting decision on Thursday. Sadly this is because for many years politicians - not least in the Labour Party - have (it would seem) chosen to not look too closely at whether 'concerns' were real, justified, misunderstandings, unpleasantness or tough.

    This failure has allowed UKIP to define the agenda and attract many people who believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have been adversely affected and/or are not being listened too.

    Of course UKIP doesn't have 'the' answer (not sure it has any answers to anything - except in the most glib and sloganistic sense) - and neither does the Brexit end of the Tory Party.

    No-one has ever said 'Brexit will mean the end to all immigration' - or even "net migration".

    It's far from clear what 'controlling our borders' and 'an Australian style points system' could/will mean.

    The only 'promise' was the one about reducing (net) migration (or was that just the non-EU sort) to tens of thousands. So that's by the current Gov and all its MPs.

    Now of course Nigel and Boris are saying we'll (only) let in the best sort of people - 'the ones with skills the UK needs' - 'Doctors, nurses, IT specialists' etc., not clear about care workers or fruit/vegetable pickers.

    Of course (assuming there is still net migration - economic meltdown might sort that) it's not clear where they will be expected to live in this 'full up'/'overcrowded' island. Not clear if any of them will be allowed to be ill or have children.

    No news on extra money for communities that have had significant numbers of extra people moving in lately. (If that ever happened, might it included areas with mass influx of students with their alien ways or yuppies with strange tastes in food and excesses of cars/bicycles?)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

  4. chdot
    Admin

    Random

    "

    His alien status in 1939 restricted the range of medical jobs he was allowed to do, and in May 1940 he was interned for five months. On release from internment he returned to Edinburgh and became a locum to Dr C E Munro, who was on war service. Then he was thrown into general practice at the deep end. The workload was enormous. Poverty, overcrowding, and men away at the war all caused problems in addition to the difficulties of dealing with illness with a limited pharmacopoeia.

    "

    https://caltonjock.com/2015/04/02/well-connected-laura-kuenssburg-bbc-news-night-senior-correspondent-what-is-her-involvement-twitter-erupts-as-bbc-struggle-to-keep-tory-election-fraud-under-wraps-until-after-may-elections/

    But it does remind be that there used to be an office for "aliens and firearms" up the High Street. Can't remember if it was police or council.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Kevin McKenna (@kmckenna63)
    25/06/2016, 9:36 am
    The Union is finished and this time there can be no regrets: My column in The Herald http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14579790.Kevin_McKenna__EU_vote_truly_signals_the_end_of_a_Union_dearer_to_me

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    From link

    "

    The working-class communities in the north-east and the East Midlands had been waiting a long time for this day to roar against the elite who had left them twisting in the winds of de-industrialisation, low wages, zero-hours contracts, unemployment and health inequality. During three successive Labour governments they had been made to feel like an embarrassment to the metropolitan Islington elite who thirsted for power and money to build property empires and corporate portfolios. They had been made to feel dirty, unwanted, politically incorrect and – worst of all – stupid by Blair, Mandelson, The Milibands and Balls.

    Such was their sense of isolation in their own party and their own country that they were easy meat for the insidious purveyor of snake-oil, Nigel Farage. He, in turn, was wound up from behind and let go by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, a convenient arms-length stooge spreading fear and suspicion about race and immigration. The Labour figures who lined up with this unlovely lot had neither the wit nor the self-respect to acknowledge that they were being deployed as patsys for the purpose of adding decoration to stages around the country.

    "

    Pretty much what I said above.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "

    David Lammy (@DavidLammy)
    25/06/2016, 4:36 pm
    Wake up. We do not have to do this. We can stop this madness through a vote in Parliament. My statement below

    http://pic.twitter.com/V8f9Yo1TZd

    '

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. Morningsider
    Member

    Who are this ill defined "metropolitan Islington elite"? Just remember, for every bogeyman such as Peter Mandelson there are many Jo Cox's - pretty sure a couple of weeks ago the Cambridge educated, houseboat living, former senior NGO worker would have been in Kevin McKenna' crosshairs. The idea that all politicians are self-serving crooks has helped "anti-establishment" and "anti-politics" candidates and parties thrive - helped in no small measure by Mr McKenna's own paper The Daily Mail. I think Kevin wants to take a look in the mirror (not the paper) before blaming anyone else for our current situation.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    However, the UK is the member state and that it where all the action will be.

    Indeed, indeed. I explained this many times to many confused folks during our own thing. But rules only apply in normal times to normal people. These are neither.

    Who's going to sue Mr. Junkers' aides for talking to Ms. Sturgeon? Mr Johnston? Scotland's being expelled from the EU by forces beyond its control - why would the Spanish equate this with Catalonia or the French with (Savoie/Corsica/Brittany...)?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. SRD
    Moderator

    Is McKenna still affiliated to the Daily Mail? I find a lot of what he writes quite sensible, and some of total rubbish.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "and some of total rubbish"

    Really doesn't like 'cyclists' - unless he has changed his mind...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. LaidBack
    Member

  13. SRD
    Moderator

    I know that!

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. Morningsider
    Member

    SRD - he's still a columnist for the Daily Mail, the Guardian lists him as executive editor of the Daily Mail Scotland.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. HankChief
    Member

    Feel free to shoot this down...

    The mandate that the referendum has given our politicians is to leave the EU. There is no detail on how they should negotiate that exit or what they should do once powers are returned that previously the EU held.

    To make these calls there will need to be a majority of MPs in Westminster agreeing to them. With the Tories only having a slim majority they will need to ensure that they bring most/all of their MPS with them (including those that voted to stay in).

    I get that the mood music in some places is more anti immigration etc than we previously thought and this may lead some MPs to move their views towards this to stop a further right party coming in but shouldn't the need to keep the Tory party together be a safeguard against the worse extremes?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    "but shouldn't the need to keep the Tory party together be a safeguard against the worse extremes?"

    Do you mean 'people should be nice about/to the Tories to reduce the chance of UKIP gaining more ground'?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

  18. chdot
    Admin

    "

    There are liars and then there’s Boris Johnson and Michael Gove

    Nick Cohen

    "

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. LaidBack
    Member

    Not a direct answer to above but my gut feel. My anger can't be expressed on my shop window adequately! Business and education relationships have been trashed. Friends with EU family feel devastated.

    Having survived decades of watching UK politics I'm no longer in the mood to follow London based media drooling over another Tory leadership challenge with no mandate here. Whoever is chosen is likely to be hostile to Scotland for our unBritish vote and will visit once a year if at all (Like Cameron). This right wing bunch of populist / anarchists are only matched by JC (Who discretely wanted to 'leave' I hear but like everyone else had no plan when it happened).
    Now we have a political vacuum in London with only Holyrood and Stormont having any idea of what they would like to do next.
    For its economic and social sanity Scotland should de-couple from Westminster asap IMHO. Westminster politicians have failed on all sides and are all now in hiding - as well they should be. They really haven't a clue as you can see on any of the pitiful interviews I've seen today. They have busked this whole thing to advance careers in a party that has only one seat here. (Boris was pro of course until he grasped at this opportunity to stir up who knows what).
    The few No voters I know are now switching as they can see no hope or vision in Scotland being not represented. Many millions of people in England and Wales are also looking for some leadership in their new desire to have a proper English and Welsh identity. What they have instead is 'game show' politics.
    Mr Chisholms view is probably correct that Holyrood will obtain more powers as it has some idea of how to govern effectively (yes they could do more on green issues but still better than rUK).
    The competence level of Westminster is at an all time low and they'll be too busy on internal politics so we may as well do as much as we can ourselves. It's a process we've started anyway.

    We've got lots of resources and talent, nothing to lose and everyone's welcome. (Javi at Bicycle Works you can stay!)

    Kezia and SLP take note.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Immigration

    Migrants will be barred from entering Britain unless they can speak good English and have the right skills for a job under plans for new legislation.

    An Asylum and Immigration Control Bill will end the automatic right of all EU citizens to enter the UK and bring in an Australian-style points system, which will come into force in the years after Britain leaves the EU.

    Under the Australian system, migrants are only granted skilled migration visas if they pass a points test based on what type of job they do, their age, English language skills, previous employment and education.

    "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/boris-johnson-and-eurosceptic-ministers-to-tell-david-cameron-th/

    So no rich foreigners who don't plan to work?

    Will the numbers let in be reduced if there has to be mass repatriation of ex-pats?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Social justice and democracy must be at the heart of Brexit negotiations. Progressives must unite to stop the UK turning into a Thatcherite wasteland

    "

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/britain-rainy-fascist-island-progrexit-brexit

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "

    In Ebbw Vale, with little immigration and perhaps more EU investment than any other UK small town, the sense of injustice is greater than the sum of the facts

    "

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. weezee
    Member

    @laidback +1

    However, even as a yesser, I feel that England does not deserve what it would now get as a result of Scottish independence. I'd like to think we could leave it safe in the knowledge that there is a grown up somewhere in the vicinity (particularly in opposition).

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. paddyirish
    Member

    Agree with everything that @LaidBack has said and admire the restraint when so much is on the line for you.

    This view from the Irish Times is pretty sharp.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. gibbo
    Member

    @chdot

    "In Ebbw Vale, with little immigration and perhaps more EU investment than any other UK small town, the sense of injustice is greater than the sum of the facts"

    Or maybe they voted for what they thought was best for the UK, rather that what was best for themselves?

    Reading that Guardian statement, I'm wondering if I've been doing this voting thing the wrong way. I've always voted for the party I thought would be best for the country, rather than the one that offered me the best bribes.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @weezee

    I'd like to think we could leave it safe in the knowledge that there is a grown up somewhere in the vicinity

    Those are kind and wise words, but I'm reminded of the scene in the Sopranos when Tony's wife goes to see a psychiatrist (who seemed to be a metaphor for God). He listens to her and at the end of the session says that he has only one piece of advice for her; 'Take what's left of your children and run.'

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    "Or maybe they voted for what they thought was best for the UK, rather that what was best for themselves?"

    Maybe.

    "

    It’s a town with almost no immigrants that voted to get the immigrants out. A town that has been showered with EU cash that no longer wants to be part of the EU. A town that holds some of the clues, perhaps, in understanding quite how spectacularly the Remain message failed to land. There’s a sense of injustice that is far greater than the sum of the facts, and the political landscape has fractured and split. Zak Kelly says that many of his friends, in what is Nye Bevan’s old constituency, voted Ukip.

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Local business chiefs are now seeking to make progress with a devolution deal which is part of the creation of the new Tees Valley Combined Authority. Dave Budd, its chairman, told the Hartlepool Mail that this was now a major priority. “We now need to move forward with regional devolution and give Tees Valley control over its own destiny.” Perhaps he’ll be extending an invitation to Nicola Sturgeon to exchange notes.

    In the Jacksons Arms pub in Hartlepool late on Friday night, some local people were picking over the bones of the campaign. “The main reason I voted to leave the EU was immigration,” said Tommy Docherty. “And that doesn’t make me a racist. There needs to be a cap on immigrants coming to this country because, as things stand, this country just can’t cope.” Docherty’s skills as a joiner take him all over the country in the gas and shipping industries and he is well aware of the divisions throughout the UK. “I’m originally from the east end of Glasgow and I was astonished that every Scottish region voted to stay in.” His friend and colleague Brian Trotter also voted to leave the EU and, similarly, had no regrets in doing so. “I didn’t think the Leave side would win, to be honest. But I’m delighted that it did. Immigration is also a big issue for me; not the principle but the sheer volume.”

    "

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/hartlepool-eu-referendum-leave-voters-immigration-jobs

    Just a snapshot of course, but more anecdotal evidence that some people believe the lines that a) the UK is 'full' and b) voting leave will get (net) migration cut at a stroke.

    But only if the UK becomes a most unattractive place to work/live and/or the economy stalls/reverses to the extent that there is no demand for workers.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. HankChief
    Member

    http://pedalonparliament.org/pedalling-into-the-future

    "

    With the shockwaves from the EU referendum result still reverberating around the world, it might seem like no time to think about cycling. But whatever the future holds we will still need to think about the really important issues beyond the immediacies of politics and personalities. Issues such as climate change and pollution, which knows no borders. Protecting our kids’ health, physical and mental, and our own.

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    "

    we will still need to think about the really important issues beyond the immediacies of politics and personalities. Issues such as climate change and pollution, which knows no borders. Protecting our kids’ health, physical and mental, and our own.

    "

    Very, very true.

    All the issues that were unmentioned in the whole Brexit 'debate'.

    If the actual Brexit split goes badly or even better than 'promised' - with or without parallel/subsequent Independence for Scotland - the *real* issues are likely to remain as 'unimportant' as ever.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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